[Vision2020] Separation Of Church & State

Mon Aug 1 14:19:58 PDT 2005

Joan wrote:

"And when it comes to polygamy, or female genital mutilation, or smoking aboriginal hallucinogens, some religious practices are clearly abridged even on private property." 

Peyote use in religious ceremonies by recognized Native American members of some tribes is now legal in the USA.  Someone posing as a Native American recently was under scrutiny for involvement with peyote, which would be illegal if they were not a recognized member of the Native American tribes who are allowed to use peyote for Native American religious ceremonies.  Read content at the link below:

Ted wrote on Vision2020 7/27/05:

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/drg25.htm

It is well known that in fact religious ceremonial use of certain quite otherwise illegal drugs is allowed with a religious exemption, as you can read at the web link above.  I am sure that your use of alcohol in the Jewish religion for ceremonial use by minors can be or already is protected by the guarantee of religious freedom that our big bad evil government and the US Constitution provides.

Ted Moffett 

-----Original Message-----
From: Joan Opyr <joanopyr at earthlink.net>
To: Kai Eiselein <editor at lataheagle.com>
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 12:58:40 -0700
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Separation Of Church & State

On Aug 1, 2005, at 12:19 PM, Kai Eiselein wrote: 

> How about we ban the yearly pow wow at the dome? After all that is 
> religious, as well, isn't it? 
> Polygamy? I don't care, frankly. I DO however have a problem with 13 > year 
> females getting married against their will. Practices which have been > well 
> documented over the past few years. And which have been done by ALL of > the 
> groups you mentioned, Joan. 
> Should we allow the practice of mutilating female genetalia, since it > has a 
> religious facet? It's a "cultural norm". Whether religous or secular, > every 
> society has its "cultural norm", in which people function. Western > norms do 
> not allow polygamy, human sacrifice, yadayadyada. And even religions > must 
> stay within those boundries. Do Jews regulary sacrifice animals > anymore? If 
> not, why not? What changed? 

You're making my point for me here, Kai. I am NOT against renting the Kibbie Dome to Doug Wilson and Christ Church. I am simply pointing out that there is a conflict between Doug's stated religious practice (serving communion wine to minors) and state law. His plans for "Worship in the Dome" put the University in an awkward position, to say the least, and the frenetic blogging that's been taking place on http://dougwils.com and http://right-mind.us suggests that this awkwardness (or, rather, provocation) was deliberate. 

Now, it just so happens that I know a little something about student Pow Wows held at the Kibbie; I've attended many. Now here's a question for you, Nelly Boots -- did you know that the UI Native American student group was charged $10,000 to use the Kibbie for its one night Pow Wow last year, while Doug and Christ Church are only being charged $750 per day? What's going on here, do you suppose? Some of that religious discrimination you claim to be so worried about? 

I, too, have a problem with children being married, whether it's against their will down in Southern Idaho, or by their own free choice to Jerry Lee Lewis. I have a problem with female genital mutilation. I have a problem with many, many religious practices: two young men, ages 15 and 16, were stoned to death in Iran recently for being gay. Homosexuality is a violation of Sharia, a fundamentalist interpretation of Islamic law. You can bet your sweet bippie that I have a problem with that. 

What I am asking you is to answer, Kai, are the very questions you pose above. What religious practices should be tolerated on secular state property? Get your thoughts in order before you respond because this is not an easy question. Have a look at some of the case law regarding religious practices in prison. Some years back, Orrin Hatch and other religious conservatives co-sponsored a freedom of religion law, granting prisoners the right to practice their faiths freely in our penitentiary system. I think Hatch and company imagined that this would serve by and large to "bring people to Jesus." It's done that, no doubt; it's also brought people to the Nation of Islam, to Judaism, to Native American traditional religions, and to a host of other religious practices that Orrin Hatch clearly never considered. (Orrin Hatch thinks a lot like my Southern Baptist grandmother, who believes that allowing the return of prayer to public schools would only mean allowing Christian prayer. Why? Because that's the only kind of prayer she knows. She's not picturing an Imam or a Shaman delivering the commencement prayer at my alma mater, William G. Enloe High School.  If that were to happen, she'd be out marching in the streets in protest faster than you could say Madelyn Murray O'Hare.) 

Again, I do not oppose renting UI or any other state property to religious groups for religious worship. I do think, however, that religious groups inevitably compromise their religious practice by moving from private to public property. And when it comes to polygamy, or female genital mutilation, or smoking aboriginal hallucinogens, some religious practices are clearly abridged even on private property. 

Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment 
www.auntie-establishment.com 

PS: I'm a Reform Jew. Burnt sacrifices no longer make a pleasing smell unto the Lord, and even if they did, I wouldn't expect Tim White or the UI Administration to allow me to set fire to a sheep in the Kibbie Dome. 

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