[Vision2020] Wayne, Ted, Eric, etc.
keely emerinemix
kjajmix1@msn.com
Sat, 29 May 2004 19:07:55 -0700
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C445B0.40521BA0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As Joan's favorite erudite evangelical -- and what a compliment that is, =
coming as it does from the Aphrodite of Erudite -- perhaps I can jump in =
here.
Wayne, I've appreciated the respect you've shown me in our previous =
discussions, and I know it will come to no surprise to you that I =
disagree that God commands our worship because he's in any way puerile =
or needy. I believe, as a disciple of Jesus Christ, that God designed =
us for relationship -- relationship with himself as well as with others. =
Every satisfying relationship I enjoy on earth is a picture of the =
relationship with the Divine that I was created to have and that I =
desperately sought, and that God graciously provides me in Christ.
Ted, I've admired many of your postings and regret that Eric's responses =
have annoyed you so. And I admit to more than a little consternation =
that much of your irritation with Eric stems from his continued =
association with and defense of Doug Wilson and his conduct and =
doctrine. It's hard for me to read Eric's elucidation of the Christian =
faith without wondering why he would continue to embrace the ministry of =
a man whose conduct and beliefs are, at best, antithetical to the =
gospel. I am, however, grateful that Eric equates the Christian life =
with something other than art, music, poetry, stout beer and good cigars =
(not to mention class privilege, sexism, and serrated wit). But I =
wonder how his apparent soft heart for humankind finds its nurture in =
the nest of a man who gleefully maligns and insults those around him, =
both inside and outside the fold of Christianity, and who has done more =
than anyone on the Palouse to turn people against the faith. =20
Eric, have you given thought to the possibility that your continued =
embrace of Doug Wilson has had a deleterious effect on your witness for =
the Gospel? Sometimes you need to be known as much for who you rebuke =
as for who you embrace. It's impossible for those who share your faith =
to not gag over what has come from the Kirk of late. To imagine that =
those who don't share your beliefs will somehow swallow hard and drink =
in what you have to say is more than a little unlikely. The cup you're =
offering tastes burnt and bitter. Pour out the nasty stuff, wash out =
the cup, and refill it with something better. You'll be as good a man =
for the pouring out as for the refilling...
keely emerine mix =20
=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Eric Engerbretson=20
To: Art Deco aka W. Fox ; vision2020@moscow.com=20
Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2004 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Ted's answer to Eric E.
Wayne,
Again, great thoughts on your part.
I appreciate very much the need to meed the physical needs of the =
world's masses, especially since God commands me in the Bible to feed =
the hungry, and minister to the poor and sick.=20
I will gladly do these things (at the moment, only with my money), to =
the degree that a person needs to be fed and healthy to be able to =
understand a presentation of the Gospel, and then to be helped to live a =
life pleasing to God.
But humanitarianism as an end to itself, is helping only half of the =
man. The Bible says, "What does it profit a man if he gains the world =
and loses his soul?"=20
What good does it do for me to feed and clothe a man and leave him so =
that he can happily and warmly go spend an eternity without God? As Nick =
said with his Max Planck quote, it is folly to artificially separate a =
man's physicality and spirituality. Any attempts to do so are only =
illusions, and are a band-aid on a bullet hole. That is why I think =
wholistic medicine, and preventative health, and Eastern medicine are on =
the right track. They respect the whole man.
So, yes, I would love to do a Peace Corps mission. But to ignore the =
spirituality of the people I would be helping would be to harm them. My =
Peace Corps mission would emphasize the most important "Peace", the =
peace between God and man.
Far more tragic than a poor person starving to death and going to =
spend eternity with God is a healthy, well-clothed person living a long =
wasteful life and then going to spend eternity without God.
Best regards,
Eric E.
On May 28, 2004, at 1:16 PM, Art Deco aka W. Fox wrote:
Eric, et al,
=20
When searching for "the truth" it may be useful to understand that =
some statements are neither true nor false. For example:
=20
"The square root of blue recrystalizes sodomy."
=20
Just because words can be strung together in an apparently =
syntactically correct sentence doesn't meant the sentence has a =
comprehensible, literal, testable meaning.
=20
In your quest for "the truth" you might watch out for these kind of =
assertions. Religion, philosophy, politics, etc. are rife with such =
statements. These assertions are generally recognizable by the =
practical impossibility of being neither unequivocally confirmable nor =
falsifiable. The latter is often especially the case.
=20
A parable derived from an example written by an apostate Catholic =
disciple of Wittgenstein may be helpful as an illustration to you.=20
=20
=20
Neighbors A & B were having an over-the-back-fence discussion:
=20
A: I heard you have a new kind of powerful watchdog or something.
=20
B: Yes, it is called the Odg.
=20
A: What does it do?
=20
B: It watches over us continually and protects us and our =
property from harm.
=20
A: I haven't seen anything. Where is it?
=20
B: The Odg is invisible.
=20
A: I have heard any barking or anything.
=20
B: The Odg makes no sound.
=20
A: You don't have a fence. How do you keep the Odg in?
=20
B: The Odg stays with us always. It is the loving nature of the =
Odg to do so.
=20
A: Your lawn is immaculate. I don't see any Odg droppings at =
all.
=20
B: The Odg never eats. Consequently, it makes no droppings. It =
doesn't slobber or have bad breath either.
=20
A: Tell me again what it does.
=20
B: It watches over us and protects us from all harms. It =
requires only unquestioning belief on our part in return.
=20
A: But wasn't your home robbed of everything of value, weren't =
you badly beaten up, and wasn't your wife taken for and enjoyed a =
month-long sexual romp by a motorcycle gang a few months ago?
=20
B: Yes, but it must of been good for us, else the Odg would not =
have let it happen.
=20
=20
Eric, I hope you are a sincere person who wishes to better the =
world.=20
=20
After understanding the above parable and its ramifications, perhaps =
you might consider shifting the focus of your faith and the use of your =
talents from proselytization to working directly, non-judgmentally, and =
non-theologically to alleviate some of the obvious sufferings in the =
world -- hunger, disease, illiteracy, war, religious strife, crime, =
social disorganization, etc.
=20
When I lived in Africa as a Peace Corps Volunteer, I meet a number =
of missionaries and other once very religious people of various faiths =
who came to Africa originally to spread their religious beliefs.=20
=20
The pursuit of the alleviation of suffering and the physical =
improvement of the general conditions of life for many of these people =
soon became the meaning of and center for their existence. Religious =
beliefs, if not abandoned for many of these people, became a very less =
important part of their lives. Their faiths, like Albert Schweitzer's =
were greatly altered. I know because I worked with and enjoyed several =
of these people. They openly and unabashedly talked about their =
spiritual transformation and their determination to help those less =
fortunate than themselves in a multitude of non-spiritual ways.
=20
Many formerly very religious persons believed that in the overall =
scheme of the universe as they came to see it, preventing glaucoma or =
teaching Africans to farm productively enriched humankind a great deal =
more than such self-serving activities like building churches, making =
doubtful converts, or singing hymns.
Wayne
=20
Art Deco (Wayne Fox)
deco@moscow.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Engerbretson=20
To: Art Deco aka W. Fox ; vision2020@moscow.com=20
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 10:19 AM
Subject: Re:Re:Re:Re: [Vision2020] Ted's answer to Eric E.
Thanks for taking the time to write such a clear and well-written =
bunch o' thoughts, Wayne. Very cogent. And I mean that sincerely.
But, regardless of how well it can be proven that none of us can =
prove who is right-- someone still IS closer to the Truth, and I'm going =
to keep trying to find out who they are.
Eric E.
On May 28, 2004, at 9:21 AM, Art Deco aka W. Fox wrote:
All,
=20
At the risk of sounding like a broken record and probably offending =
almost everyone again, here are a few comments on the current Eric E. =
vs.. other V 2020 posters thread.
=20
There are tens of thousands of different systemic religious beliefs, =
each contradictory to each of the others. Unless you can present =
cogent evidence that a contradiction is not always a false statement, =
this means that only one, if any, of these different religious views is =
true. Compounding this problem is the fact that many adherents of many =
of these religious beliefs are, like Eric, absolutely convinced that =
their way is the only absolutely true way.
=20
The tens of thousands of systemic religious beliefs is an =
understatement. If we consider the nuances of individual belief, the =
are probably billions of different religious beliefs.
=20
The problem is that, so far, no method has been found that provides =
a clear, acceptable, universal way to decide the truth of particular =
statements/assertions referencing alleged supernatural beings and =
occurrences.
=20
If there were such a method, this discussion would not be occurring =
-- not only on V 2020, but in millions of other places. There is no =
argument about the specific gravity and the conductibility of copper, =
the tensile strength of alloy X2314, or other beliefs that are used to =
send humankind to the moon and broadcast that event in real-time.
=20
The existence of the above problem of knowledge should give rational =
persons a great deal of pause before asserting with apodictic rigor the =
truth of any particular set of superstitious/religious beliefs such as =
Christianity, Islam, Judaism, God as Space Traveler, Gods who Live in a =
Volcano, Pan, etc. The probability of any particular =
religious/superstitious system being true appears miniscule. This pause =
should also limit attempting to control/limit other's lives based solely =
on these superstitious/religious beliefs. [Other considerations appear =
at the end for those that do not get bored/disgusted before arriving =
there.]
=20
With regard to ethical statements, a somewhat similar situation =
exists. However, since all of us must act, there are various systems =
which attempt to provide a practical answers to ethical questions. Some =
of these ethical systems are, in great part, empirically based. In =
these systems, facts are considered and ethical truths are subject to =
testing and to modification based on experience.
=20
Anthropological investigations of many different societies appear to =
demonstrate that ethical beliefs generally arise out of practical =
considerations. These ethical beliefs occur before the =
superstitious/religious foundations which eventually are used to =
propagandize belief in and to buttress obedience to such ethical =
beliefs.
=20
=20
Life is a constant, sometimes very difficult struggle. An =
observably contingent universe provides many uncertainties and =
unpleasantries. All of us have various means of coping with various =
parts of this struggle. Many of these coping mechanisms involve =
fantasy. Psychologists call them defense mechanisms. Those who have =
read modern psychology know there are a great number of these mechanisms =
that have been identified, e.g., rationalization, projection, reaction =
formation, etc.
=20
For example, probably all of us had an imaginary friend and/or =
ascribed to/fantasized about the actions/emotions of real friends. =
Defense mechanisms allow us to cope with and to alleviate in the short =
term many unpleasant feelings and to defend our personas against =
unpleasant truths. The use of these coping mechanisms when not confused =
with reality in the long term are normal and generally healthy.
=20
The problems with the use of defense mechanisms begin to appear when =
the person believes the fantasies driven or engendered by these defense =
mechanisms correspond to reality. When the fantasies/delusions reach =
certain levels of unreality, such as believing in contradictory =
statements, believing in existential statements contrary to or not =
supported by evidence, or, in particular, believing that a particular =
person controls the weather for a region, then such defense mechanisms =
become pathological to various degrees.
=20
Many non-believers such as myself do not find all =
superstitious/religious beliefs to be "evil." Such beliefs provide =
solace in times of grief, provide moral guidance for some, provide a =
sense of community/belonging for some, provide comfort from the =
vicissitudes of life's struggle, etc. Although the truth of such =
beliefs is highly doubtful, to the extent that religious/superstitious =
beliefs provide relative peace, well-being, individual growth, etc. non- =
believers are not upset by such matters.
=20
The problem for non-believers and many believers alike arises when =
religious/superstitious beliefs are use to proscribe the actions of =
others who do not share the particular superstitions of the proscriber.
=20
In plain terms, many see that solely using superstition/religion and =
ignorance to limit the freedom, aspirations, individual growth =
opportunities, non-criminal life styles, etc. of other people is little =
short of colossal egotism and is an logically/epistemologically =
unwarranted intrusion on personal liberty.
=20
Eric and his fellow believes are clearly free to indulge in, use as =
coping mechanisms, and to argue for their particular =
superstitious/religious beliefs. If Eric's beliefs provide comfort for =
him, fine. However, when Eric and his fellow travelers use their =
particular beliefs to condemn, to attempt to impose guilt upon, and/or =
to outlaw the non-criminal freedom of others, then because there is =
little or no logical/epistemological support for Eric's beliefs, =
conflict, often acrimonious and sometimes deadly, arises. If Eric were =
a Christian living in Saudi Arabia, he would understand this position =
much more clearly.
=20
When gender based, race based, sexual orientation based, etc. roles =
are limited not by a discussion of observable consequences but by =
superstition and ignorance, we all lose not only our own freedom of =
choice, but the contributions those who are limited can make to our =
lives as well as to their own.
=20
If you have had the patience to struggle through the above, thank =
you.
=20
In closing, here is one general problem of many that arises out of =
certain kinds of religious/superstitious beliefs.
=20
General Observation: If one expects others to act in a certain =
manner to achieve certain goals in given situations, then clarity of =
purpose and procedure is essential.
=20
Specific Instance: When desiring employees to provide excellent =
customer service, for example, a good manager carefully =
explains/re-explains to each employee clearly and unequivocally which =
behaviors/attitudes/etc. (and the purposes of such =
behaviors/attitudes/etc.) are required to reach the goal of excellent =
customer service. The clearer, more careful, more detailed the =
instruction, the greater the probability that the employees will perform =
correctly. Moreover, the instructions given about good customer service =
are a result of years of experimentation and observation -- the results =
of such instructions are verifiable. Newer experiences can and =
frequently do modify/expand the instructions.
=20
If there is such a thing as eternal life, and if there is a way to =
achieve such, then the importance of such an accomplishment greatly =
exceeds the importance of giving good customer service.
=20
If there is some being(s) in charge of deciding who is to be =
eternally rewarded/punished, she/he/it/they appear to be very inept =
managers.
=20
Given the undeniable reality of the plurality of many different =
religions, the difference in their ethical pronouncements, the =
differences in their alleged paths to eternity, the amount of death, =
heinous suffering, and displacement the practice of these religions have =
historically (and in the present) bestowed upon humankind, etc., it is =
undeniable that clear, verifiable instructions from some alleged =
deity(s) to achieve eternal reward are obviously lacking. (If not, this =
discussion would not be occurring.)
=20
In reality, all things considered, alleged gods as a guides to =
eternal rewards appear to be colossal bumblers -- certainly less =
effective than the poorest of human managers.
=20
Given the human needs that drive humankind towards the plurality of =
religious beliefs, it is of very small probability that the words above =
will influence anyone to any degree. However, I write them with hope =
that they may encourage a few to examine more closely their sexist, =
homophobic, racist, pro-slavery, anti-secular, anti-egalitarian, =
anti-innovation, and/or anti-liberty points of view.
=20
If you have read this far, thank you. Perhaps I can treat you to a =
banana split at the Elk River Dairy Queen.
Wayne
=20
Art Deco (Wayne Fox)
deco@moscow.com
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
----- Original Message -----
From: Tbertruss@aol.com
To: eric@eric-e.com ; vision2020@moscow.com
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 11:09 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] Ted's answer to Eric E.
Eric:
We can agree to disagree, amicably, but you backpedaled rather =
vigorously from wording that did not seem to imply as much "between the =
lines" interpretation as you now claim the words required. If a code =
book is needed to decipher your true meaning, perhaps you could post it =
on the web?
Where the rubber meets the road, Eric, is that I will not deny your =
faith may be the absolute truth, yet your faith demands that you assert =
my spirituality, not based on Christ's divinity, is absolutely false!
Here we diverge in ways not trivial that impact the power vectors of =
spirituality in how we seek to alter the world!
And you can make whatever you wish of that comment, which implies a =
tome or two.
Ted Moffett
The Nuart Theatre
208-882-0459 (lobby, no message)
208-883-0997 (CCM, leave message)
516 S Main, Moscow ID 83843
eric@eric-e.com
http://www.ccmbooks.org
The Nuart Theatre
208-882-0459 (lobby, no message)
208-883-0997 (CCM, leave message)
516 S Main, Moscow ID 83843
eric@eric-e.com
http://www.ccmbooks.org
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C445B0.40521BA0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML xmlns:v xmlns:o><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type =
content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1>
<STYLE></STYLE>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1226" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3DMailContainerBody=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 10px; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; =
COLOR: #000000; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; PADDING-TOP: 15px; FONT-STYLE: =
normal; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none; =
BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; TEXT-DECORATION: none; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: =
none"=20
leftMargin=3D0 topMargin=3D0 acc_role=3D"text" CanvasTabStop=3D"true"=20
name=3D"Compose message area"><?xml:namespace prefix=3D"v" =
/><?xml:namespace prefix=3D"o" />
<DIV>
<DIV>As Joan's favorite erudite evangelical -- and what a compliment =
that is,=20
coming as it does from the Aphrodite of Erudite -- perhaps I can jump in =
here.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Wayne, I've appreciated the respect you've shown me in our previous =
discussions, and I know it will come to no surprise to you that I =
disagree that=20
God commands our worship because he's in any way puerile or needy. =
I=20
believe, as a disciple of Jesus Christ, that God designed us for =
relationship --=20
relationship with himself as well as with others. Every satisfying =
relationship I enjoy on earth is a picture of the relationship with the =
Divine=20
that I was created to have and that I desperately sought, and that God=20
graciously provides me in Christ.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ted, I've admired many of your postings and regret that Eric's =
responses=20
have annoyed you so. And I admit to more than a little =
consternation=20
that much of your irritation with Eric stems from his continued =
association with=20
and defense of Doug Wilson and his conduct and doctrine. It's hard =
for me=20
to read Eric's elucidation of the Christian faith without wondering why =
he would=20
continue to embrace the ministry of a man whose conduct and =
beliefs are, at=20
best, antithetical to the gospel. I am, however, grateful that =
Eric=20
equates the Christian life with something other than art, music, poetry, =
stout=20
beer and good cigars (not to mention class privilege, sexism, and =
serrated=20
wit). But I wonder how his apparent soft heart for humankind finds =
its=20
nurture in the nest of a man who gleefully maligns and insults those =
around him,=20
both inside and outside the fold of Christianity, and who has done more =
than=20
anyone on the Palouse to turn people against the faith. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Eric, have you given thought to the possibility that your continued =
embrace=20
of Doug Wilson has had a deleterious effect on your witness for the=20
Gospel? Sometimes you need to be known as much for who you =
rebuke as=20
for who you embrace. It's impossible for those who share your =
faith=20
to not gag over what has come from the Kirk of late. To =
imagine that=20
those who don't share your beliefs will somehow swallow hard and drink =
in what=20
you have to say is more than a little unlikely. The cup =
you're=20
offering tastes burnt and bitter. Pour out the nasty =
stuff, wash out=20
the cup, and refill it with something better. You'll be =
as good=20
a man for the pouring out as for the refilling...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>keely emerine mix </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:eric@eric-e.com">Eric Engerbretson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:deco@moscow.com">Art=20
Deco aka W. Fox</A> ; <A=20
href=3D"mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, May 29, 2004 =
11:56=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Ted's =
answer to=20
Eric E.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Wayne,<BR><BR>Again, great thoughts on your =
part.<BR><BR>I=20
appreciate very much the need to meed the physical needs of the =
world's=20
masses, especially since God commands me in the Bible to feed the =
hungry, and=20
minister to the poor and sick. <BR><BR>I will gladly do these things =
(at the=20
moment, only with my money), to the degree that a person needs to be =
fed and=20
healthy to be able to understand a presentation of the Gospel, and =
then to be=20
helped to live a life pleasing to God.<BR>But humanitarianism as an =
end to=20
itself, is helping only half of the man. The Bible says, "What does it =
profit=20
a man if he gains the world and loses his soul?" <BR><BR>What good =
does it do=20
for me to feed and clothe a man and leave him so that he can happily =
and=20
warmly go spend an eternity without God? As Nick said with his Max =
Planck=20
quote, it is folly to artificially separate a man's physicality and=20
spirituality. Any attempts to do so are only illusions, and are a =
band-aid on=20
a bullet hole. That is why I think wholistic medicine, and =
preventative=20
health, and Eastern medicine are on the right track. They respect the =
whole=20
man.<BR><BR>So, yes, I would love to do a Peace Corps mission. But to =
ignore=20
the spirituality of the people I would be helping would be to harm =
them. My=20
Peace Corps mission would emphasize the most important "Peace", the =
peace=20
between God and man.<BR><BR>Far more tragic than a poor person =
starving to=20
death and going to spend eternity with God is a healthy, well-clothed =
person=20
living a long wasteful life and then going to spend eternity without=20
God.<BR><BR>Best regards,<BR><BR>Eric E.<BR><BR><BR>On May 28, 2004, =
at 1:16=20
PM, Art Deco aka W. Fox wrote:<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><?bigger><?bigger>Eric, et =
al,<?/bigger><?/bigger><BR> <BR><?bigger><?bigger>When searching =
for=20
"the truth" it may be useful to understand that some statements are =
neither=20
true nor false. For =
example:<?/bigger><?/bigger><BR> <BR><?bigger><?bigger>"The square =
root=20
of blue recrystalizes =
sodomy."<?/bigger><?/bigger><BR> <BR><?bigger><?bigger>Just because =
words can be strung together in an apparently syntactically =
correct=20
sentence doesn't meant the sentence has a comprehensible, literal,=20
=
testable meaning.<?/bigger><?/bigger><BR> <BR><?bigger><?bigger=
>In=20
your quest for "the truth" you might watch out for these kind=20
of assertions. Religion, philosophy, politics, etc. are =
rife with=20
such statements. These assertions are generally =
recognizable=20
by the practical impossibility of being neither unequivocally =
confirmable=20
nor falsifiable. The latter is often especially the =
case.<?/bigger><?/bigger><BR> <BR><?bigger><?bigger>A parable =
derived=20
from an example written by an apostate Catholic disciple of=20
Wittgenstein may be helpful as an illustration to =
you. <?/bigger><?/bigger><BR><?bigger><?bigger><?/bigger><?/bigger>&=
nbsp;<BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?param Times New =
Roman><?bigger><?bigger>Neighbors=20
A & B were having an over-the-back-fence =
discussion:<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><=
?param Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>A: =20
I heard you have a new kind of powerful watchdog or =
something.<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?=
param Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>B: =20
Yes, it is called the =
Odg.<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?param =
Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>A: =20
What does it =
do?<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?param =
Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>B: =20
It watches over us continually and protects us and our property from =
harm.<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?param=
Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>A: =20
I haven't seen anything. Where is =
it?<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?param =
Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>B: =20
The Odg is =
invisible.<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?=
param Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>A: =20
I have heard any barking or=20
=
anything.<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?p=
aram Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>B: =20
The Odg makes no =
sound.<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?para=
m Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>A: =20
You don't have a fence. How do you keep the Odg =
in?<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?param =
Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>B: =20
The Odg stays with us always. It is the loving nature of the =
Odg to do=20
=
so.<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?param =
Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>A: =20
Your lawn is immaculate. I don't see any Odg droppings at =
all.<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?param =
Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>B: =20
The Odg never eats. Consequently, it makes no droppings. =
It=20
doesn't slobber or have bad breath=20
=
either.<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?par=
am Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>A: =20
Tell me again what it =
does.<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?param=
Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>B: =20
It watches over us and protects us from all harms. It requires =
only=20
unquestioning belief on our part in =
return.<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?par=
am Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>A: =20
But wasn't your home robbed of everything of value, weren't you =
badly beaten=20
up, and wasn't your wife taken for and enjoyed a =
month-long sexual=20
romp by a motorcycle gang a few months =
ago?<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?param =
Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>B: =20
Yes, but it must of been good for us, else the Odg would not have =
let it=20
=
happen.<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><BR><?bigger><?big=
ger> <?/bigger><?/bigger><BR><?bigger><?bigger>Eric,=20
I hope you are a sincere person who wishes to better the =
world. <?/bigger><?/bigger><BR><?bigger><?bigger> <?/bigger><?/=
bigger><BR><?bigger><?bigger>After=20
understanding the above parable and its ramifications, perhaps you =
might=20
consider shifting the focus of your faith and the use of your =
talents from=20
proselytization to working directly, non-judgmentally, and=20
non-theologically to alleviate some of the obvious sufferings in the =
world=20
-- hunger, disease, illiteracy, war, religious strife, crime, social =
disorganization, =
etc.<?/bigger><?/bigger><BR><?bigger><?bigger> <?/bigger><?/bigger><=
BR><?bigger><?bigger>When=20
I lived in Africa as a Peace Corps Volunteer, I meet a number of=20
missionaries and other once very religious people of various faiths =
who came=20
to Africa originally to spread their religious =
beliefs. <?/bigger><?/bigger><BR><?bigger><?bigger> <?/bigger><=
?/bigger><BR><?bigger><?bigger>The=20
pursuit of the alleviation of suffering and the physical improvement =
of the general conditions of life for many of these =
people=20
soon became the meaning of and center for their existence. =
Religious=20
beliefs, if not abandoned for many of these people, became a very =
less=20
important part of their lives. Their faiths, like Albert =
Schweitzer's=20
were greatly altered. I know because I worked with and enjoyed =
several=20
of these people. They openly and unabashedly talked about =
their=20
spiritual transformation and their determination to help those less=20
fortunate than themselves in a multitude of non-spiritual =
ways.<?/bigger><?/bigger><BR><?bigger><?bigger> <?/bigger><?/bigger>=
<BR><?bigger><?bigger>Many=20
formerly very religious persons believed that in the overall scheme =
of the=20
universe as they came to see it, preventing glaucoma or=20
teaching Africans to farm productively enriched humankind =
a great=20
deal more than such self-serving activities like building churches,=20
making doubtful converts, or singing=20
=
hymns.<?/bigger><?/bigger><BR><BR><?bigger><?bigger>Wayne<?/bigger><?/big=
ger><BR><?bigger><?bigger> <?/bigger><?/bigger><BR><?bigger><?bigger=
>Art=20
Deco (Wayne Fox)<?/bigger><?/bigger><BR><?color><?param =
0000,0000,EEEE><?bigger><?bigger>deco@moscow.com<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/co=
lor><BR><?fontfamily><?param =
Arial><?smaller><?smaller><?x-tad-smaller>-----=20
Original Message=20
=
-----<?/x-tad-smaller><?/smaller><?/smaller><?/fontfamily></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR><?fontfamily><?param =
Arial><?smaller><?smaller><?x-tad-smaller><?/x-tad-smaller><B><?x-tad-sma=
ller>From:<?/x-tad-smaller></B><?x-tad-smaller>=20
<?/x-tad-smaller><?color><?param 0000,0000,EEEE><?x-tad-smaller>Eric=20
Engerbretson<?/x-tad-smaller><?/color><?x-tad-smaller> =
<?/x-tad-smaller><?/smaller><?/smaller><?/fontfamily></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR><B><?fontfamily><?param =
Arial><?smaller><?smaller><?x-tad-smaller>To:<?/x-tad-smaller><?/smaller>=
<?/smaller><?/fontfamily></B><?fontfamily><?param =
Arial><?smaller><?smaller><?x-tad-smaller>=20
<?/x-tad-smaller><?color><?param 0000,0000,EEEE><?x-tad-smaller>Art Deco =
aka=20
W. Fox<?/x-tad-smaller><?/color><?x-tad-smaller> ; =
<?/x-tad-smaller><?color><?param =
0000,0000,EEEE><?x-tad-smaller>vision2020@moscow.com<?/x-tad-smaller><?/c=
olor><?x-tad-smaller>=20
<?/x-tad-smaller><?/smaller><?/smaller><?/fontfamily></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR><B><?fontfamily><?param =
Arial><?smaller><?smaller><?x-tad-smaller>Sent:<?/x-tad-smaller><?/smalle=
r><?/smaller><?/fontfamily></B><?fontfamily><?param =
Arial><?smaller><?smaller><?x-tad-smaller>=20
Friday, May 28, 2004 10:19 =
AM<?/x-tad-smaller><?/smaller><?/smaller><?/fontfamily></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR><B><?fontfamily><?param =
Arial><?smaller><?smaller><?x-tad-smaller>Subject:<?/x-tad-smaller><?/sma=
ller><?/smaller><?/fontfamily></B><?fontfamily><?param =
Arial><?smaller><?smaller><?x-tad-smaller>=20
Re:Re:Re:Re: [Vision2020] Ted's answer to Eric =
E.<?/x-tad-smaller><?/smaller><?/smaller><?/fontfamily></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Thanks for taking the time to write such a clear =
and=20
well-written bunch o' thoughts, Wayne. Very cogent. And I mean that=20
sincerely.<BR><BR>But, regardless of how well it can be proven that =
none of=20
us can prove who is right-- someone still IS closer to the Truth, =
and I'm=20
going to keep trying to find out who they are.<BR><BR>Eric =
E.<BR><BR><BR>On=20
May 28, 2004, at 9:21 AM, Art Deco aka W. Fox=20
wrote:<BR><BR><BR>All,<BR> <BR>At the risk of sounding like a =
broken=20
record and probably offending almost everyone again, here are a few =
comments=20
on the current Eric E. vs.. other V 2020 posters =
thread.<BR> <BR>There=20
are tens of thousands of different systemic religious beliefs, each=20
contradictory to each of the others. Unless you can =
present=20
cogent evidence that a contradiction is not always a false =
statement, this=20
means that only one, if any, of these different religious views is=20
true. Compounding this problem is the fact that many adherents =
of many=20
of these religious beliefs are, like Eric, absolutely convinced =
that=20
their way is the only absolutely true way.<BR> <BR>The tens of=20
thousands of systemic religious beliefs is an understatement. =
If we=20
consider the nuances of individual belief, the are probably billions =
of=20
different religious beliefs.<BR> <BR><B>The problem is that, so =
far, no=20
method has been found that provides a clear, acceptable, =
universal way=20
to decide the truth of particular statements/assertions referencing=20
alleged supernatural beings and =
occurrences.</B><BR> <BR>If there=20
were such a method, this discussion would not be occurring =
-- not only=20
on V 2020, but in millions of other places. There is no =
argument about=20
the specific gravity and the conductibility of copper, the =
tensile=20
strength of alloy X2314, or other beliefs that are used to send =
humankind to=20
the moon and broadcast that event in real-time.<BR> <BR>The =
existence=20
of the above problem of knowledge should give rational =
persons a=20
great deal of pause before asserting with apodictic rigor the truth =
of any=20
particular set of superstitious/religious beliefs such as =
Christianity,=20
Islam, Judaism, God as Space Traveler, Gods who Live in a Volcano, =
Pan,=20
etc. The probability of any particular religious/superstitious =
system=20
being true appears miniscule. This pause should also limit=20
attempting to control/limit other's lives based solely on =
these=20
superstitious/religious beliefs. [Other considerations appear =
at the=20
end for those that do not get bored/disgusted before arriving=20
there.]<BR> <BR>With regard to ethical statements, a somewhat =
similar=20
situation exists. However, since all of us must act, there are =
various=20
systems which attempt to provide a practical answers to ethical=20
questions. Some of these ethical systems are, in great part,=20
empirically based. In these systems, facts are considered and =
ethical=20
truths are subject to testing and to modification based on=20
experience.<BR> <BR>Anthropological investigations of many =
different=20
societies appear to demonstrate that ethical beliefs =
generally=20
arise out of practical considerations. These ethical beliefs =
occur=20
before the superstitious/religious foundations which eventually are =
used to=20
propagandize belief in and to buttress obedience to such ethical=20
beliefs.<BR> <BR> <BR>Life is a constant, sometimes very =
difficult=20
struggle. An observably contingent universe provides many=20
uncertainties and unpleasantries. All of us have various means =
of=20
coping with various parts of this struggle. Many of these =
coping=20
mechanisms involve fantasy. Psychologists call them defense=20
mechanisms. Those who have read modern psychology know there =
are a=20
great number of these mechanisms that have been identified, e.g.,=20
rationalization, projection, reaction formation, =
etc.<BR> <BR>For=20
example, probably all of us had an imaginary friend and/or ascribed=20
to/fantasized about the actions/emotions of real =
friends. Defense=20
mechanisms allow us to cope with and to alleviate in the short =
term=20
many unpleasant feelings and to defend our personas against =
unpleasant=20
truths. The use of these coping mechanisms when not confused =
with=20
reality in the long term are normal and generally =
healthy.<BR> <BR>The=20
problems with the use of defense mechanisms begin to appear =
when the=20
person believes the fantasies driven or engendered by these defense=20
mechanisms correspond to reality. When the fantasies/delusions =
reach=20
certain levels of unreality, such as believing in contradictory=20
statements, believing in existential statements contrary =
to or not=20
supported by evidence, or, in particular, believing that a =
particular=20
person controls the weather for a region, then such defense =
mechanisms=20
become pathological to various degrees.<BR> <BR>Many =
non-believers=20
such as myself do not find all superstitious/religious beliefs to be =
"evil." Such beliefs provide solace in times of grief, provide =
moral=20
guidance for some, provide a sense of community/belonging for some, =
provide=20
comfort from the vicissitudes of life's struggle, etc. =
Although the=20
truth of such beliefs is highly doubtful, to the extent that=20
religious/superstitious beliefs provide relative peace, well-being,=20
individual growth, etc. non- believers are not upset by such=20
matters.<BR> <BR>The problem for non-believers and many =
believers alike=20
arises when religious/superstitious beliefs are use to proscribe the =
actions=20
of others who do not share the particular superstitions of the=20
proscriber.<BR> <BR>In plain terms, many see that solely using=20
superstition/religion and ignorance to limit the freedom, =
aspirations,=20
individual growth opportunities, non-criminal life styles,=20
etc. of other people is little short of colossal egotism =
and is an=20
logically/epistemologically unwarranted intrusion on personal=20
liberty.<BR> <BR>Eric and his fellow believes are clearly free =
to=20
indulge in, use as coping mechanisms, and to argue for their =
particular=20
superstitious/religious beliefs. If Eric's beliefs provide =
comfort for=20
him, fine. However, when Eric and his fellow travelers use =
their=20
particular beliefs to condemn, to attempt to impose guilt upon, =
and/or to=20
outlaw the non-criminal freedom of others, then because there is =
little or=20
no logical/epistemological support for Eric's beliefs, conflict, =
often=20
acrimonious and sometimes deadly, arises. If Eric were a =
Christian=20
living in Saudi Arabia, he would understand this position much more=20
clearly.<BR> <BR>When gender based, race based, sexual =
orientation=20
based, etc. roles are limited not by a discussion of observable =
consequences=20
but by superstition and ignorance, we all lose not only our own =
freedom of=20
choice, but the contributions those who are limited can make to our =
lives as=20
well as to their own.<BR> <BR>If you have had the patience to =
struggle=20
through the above, thank you.<BR> <BR>In closing, here =
is one=20
general problem of many that arises out of certain kinds of=20
religious/superstitious beliefs.<BR> <BR>General =
Observation: If=20
one expects others to act in a certain manner to achieve certain=20
goals in given situations, then clarity of purpose and =
procedure is=20
essential.<BR> <BR>Specific Instance: When desiring =
employees to=20
provide excellent customer service, for example, a good manager =
carefully=20
explains/re-explains to each employee clearly and unequivocally =
which=20
behaviors/attitudes/etc. (and the purposes of such =
behaviors/attitudes/etc.)=20
are required to reach the goal of excellent customer service. =
The=20
clearer, more careful, more detailed the instruction, the =
greater=20
the probability that the employees will perform correctly. =
Moreover,=20
the instructions given about good customer service are a result of =
years of=20
experimentation and observation -- the results of such instructions =
are=20
verifiable. Newer experiences can and frequently do =
modify/expand the=20
instructions.<BR> <BR>If there is such a thing as eternal life, =
and if=20
there is a way to achieve such, then the importance of such an=20
accomplishment greatly exceeds the importance of giving good =
customer=20
service.<BR> <BR>If there is some being(s) in charge of =
deciding who is=20
to be eternally rewarded/punished, she/he/it/they appear to be very =
inept=20
managers.<BR> <BR>Given the undeniable reality of the plurality =
of many=20
different religions, the difference in their ethical pronouncements, =
the=20
differences in their alleged paths to eternity, the amount of death, =
heinous=20
suffering, and displacement the practice of these religions have=20
historically (and in the present) bestowed upon humankind, etc., it =
is=20
undeniable that clear, verifiable instructions from some =
alleged=20
deity(s) to achieve eternal reward are obviously lacking. =
(If=20
not, this discussion would not be occurring.)<BR> <BR>In =
reality, all=20
things considered, alleged gods as a guides to eternal rewards =
appear to=20
be colossal bumblers -- certainly less effective than the =
poorest of=20
human managers.<BR> <BR>Given the human needs that drive =
humankind=20
towards the plurality of religious beliefs, it is of very small =
probability=20
that the words above will influence anyone to any degree. =
However, I=20
write them with hope that they may encourage a few to examine more =
closely=20
their sexist, homophobic, racist, pro-slavery, anti-secular,=20
anti-egalitarian, anti-innovation, and/or anti-liberty points =
of=20
view.<BR> <BR>If you have read this far, thank you. =
Perhaps=20
I can treat you to a banana split at the Elk River Dairy=20
Queen.<BR><BR><BR>Wayne<BR> <BR>Art Deco (Wayne=20
=
Fox)<BR>deco@moscow.com<BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> =
<BR> <BR> <BR>-----=20
Original Message -----<BR><BR><B>From:</B>=20
Tbertruss@aol.com<BR><BR><B>To:</B> eric@eric-e.com ;=20
vision2020@moscow.com<BR><BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 27, 2004 =
11:09=20
PM<BR><BR><B>Subject:</B> [Vision2020] Ted's answer to Eric=20
E.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Eric:<BR><BR>We can agree to disagree, amicably, =
but you=20
backpedaled rather vigorously from wording that did not seem to =
imply as=20
much "between the lines" interpretation as you now claim the words=20
required. If a code book is needed to decipher your true =
meaning,=20
perhaps you could post it on the web?<BR><BR>Where the rubber meets =
the=20
road, Eric, is that I will not deny your faith may be the absolute =
truth,=20
yet your faith demands that you assert my spirituality, not based on =
Christ's divinity, is absolutely false!<BR><BR>Here we diverge in =
ways not=20
trivial that impact the power vectors of spirituality in how we seek =
to=20
alter the world!<BR><BR>And you can make whatever you wish of that =
comment,=20
which implies a tome or two.<BR><BR>Ted =
Moffett<BR><BR><BR><BR><B><I>The=20
Nuart Theatre</I></B><BR><B><I>208-882-0459 (lobby, no=20
message)</I></B><BR><B><I>208-883-0997 (CCM, leave=20
message)</I></B><BR><B><I>516 S Main, Moscow ID=20
=
83843</I></B><BR><B><I>eric@eric-e.com</I></B><BR><B><I>http://www.ccmboo=
ks.org</I></B><BR><BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><B><I><?fontfamily><?param =
Arial><?color><?param 8080,0000,0000><?bigger><?x-tad-bigger><BR><BR>The =
Nuart =
Theatre<?/x-tad-bigger><?/bigger><?/color><?/fontfamily></I></B><B><I><?f=
ontfamily><?param Arial><?color><?param =
9999,9999,9999><BR><?smaller><?smaller><?x-tad-smaller>208-882-0459=20
(lobby, no message)<BR>208-883-0997 (CCM, leave message)<BR>516 S =
Main, Moscow=20
ID =
83843<BR>eric@eric-e.com<BR>http://www.ccmbooks.org<BR><BR><?/x-tad-small=
er><?/smaller><?/smaller><?/color><?/fontfamily></I></B><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>=
</DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C445B0.40521BA0--