[Vision2020] Ted's answer to Eric E.
Art Deco aka W. Fox
deco@moscow.com
Sat, 29 May 2004 14:57:57 -0700
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Eric,
Your reply seems to indicate that you did not understand either of my two
previous emails.
Perhaps that was to be expected. Those that did understand them know what the
probable diagnosis is.
On the point of your message below: I can tell you as a former worker in a
third world country, most of those whom "spiritual help" is offered to/foisted
upon do not appreciate it and only pretend to listen in order to get material
help like curing their diseases, learning to farm more productively, learning to
read, etc.
It hard for them to worry about some strange concept of a god, of whom even the
most uneducated African living in the back country evinces a great deal of
skepticism, when they are continually hungry or have Madura Foot, Sheep Liver
Fluke, or Schistosomiasis.
As I indicated before, offering spiritual help based upon some superstitious
being or ghost-in-the-machine is a highly dubious, supremely egomaniacal
undertaking.
Further, ascribing to some alleged all-powerful god the dictum of "you must
adore/acknowledge me" seems horribly inconsistent, grossly insulting, and
anthropomorphic. If some alleged god is all-powerful then she/he/it is
certainly beyond the puerile human weakness/frailty of needing constant
reassurance and acknowledgement. Saying that this alleged all-powerful god
needs/demands adoration appears a far worse insult to she/he/it than the mere
denial of its alleged being. Freud called it Father Image Worship and
diagnosised it as a childish neurosis.
Wayne
Art Deco (Wayne Fox)
deco@moscow.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Engerbretson
To: Art Deco aka W. Fox ; vision2020@moscow.com
Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2004 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Ted's answer to Eric E.
Wayne,
Again, great thoughts on your part.
I appreciate very much the need to meed the physical needs of the world's
masses, especially since God commands me in the Bible to feed the hungry, and
minister to the poor and sick.
I will gladly do these things (at the moment, only with my money), to the
degree that a person needs to be fed and healthy to be able to understand a
presentation of the Gospel, and then to be helped to live a life pleasing to
God.
But humanitarianism as an end to itself, is helping only half of the man. The
Bible says, "What does it profit a man if he gains the world and loses his
soul?"
What good does it do for me to feed and clothe a man and leave him so that he
can happily and warmly go spend an eternity without God? As Nick said with his
Max Planck quote, it is folly to artificially separate a man's physicality and
spirituality. Any attempts to do so are only illusions, and are a band-aid on a
bullet hole. That is why I think wholistic medicine, and preventative health,
and Eastern medicine are on the right track. They respect the whole man.
So, yes, I would love to do a Peace Corps mission. But to ignore the
spirituality of the people I would be helping would be to harm them. My Peace
Corps mission would emphasize the most important "Peace", the peace between God
and man.
Far more tragic than a poor person starving to death and going to spend
eternity with God is a healthy, well-clothed person living a long wasteful life
and then going to spend eternity without God.
Best regards,
Eric E.
On May 28, 2004, at 1:16 PM, Art Deco aka W. Fox wrote:
Eric, et al,
When searching for "the truth" it may be useful to understand that some
statements are neither true nor false. For example:
"The square root of blue recrystalizes sodomy."
Just because words can be strung together in an apparently syntactically
correct sentence doesn't meant the sentence has a comprehensible, literal,
testable meaning.
In your quest for "the truth" you might watch out for these kind of
assertions. Religion, philosophy, politics, etc. are rife with such statements.
These assertions are generally recognizable by the practical impossibility of
being neither unequivocally confirmable nor falsifiable. The latter is often
especially the case.
A parable derived from an example written by an apostate Catholic disciple
of Wittgenstein may be helpful as an illustration to you.
Neighbors A & B were having an over-the-back-fence discussion:
A: I heard you have a new kind of powerful watchdog or something.
B: Yes, it is called the Odg.
A: What does it do?
B: It watches over us continually and protects us and our property from
harm.
A: I haven't seen anything. Where is it?
B: The Odg is invisible.
A: I have heard any barking or anything.
B: The Odg makes no sound.
A: You don't have a fence. How do you keep the Odg in?
B: The Odg stays with us always. It is the loving nature of the Odg to
do so.
A: Your lawn is immaculate. I don't see any Odg droppings at all.
B: The Odg never eats. Consequently, it makes no droppings. It doesn't
slobber or have bad breath either.
A: Tell me again what it does.
B: It watches over us and protects us from all harms. It requires only
unquestioning belief on our part in return.
A: But wasn't your home robbed of everything of value, weren't you badly
beaten up, and wasn't your wife taken for and enjoyed a month-long sexual romp
by a motorcycle gang a few months ago?
B: Yes, but it must of been good for us, else the Odg would not have let
it happen.
Eric, I hope you are a sincere person who wishes to better the world.
After understanding the above parable and its ramifications, perhaps you
might consider shifting the focus of your faith and the use of your talents from
proselytization to working directly, non-judgmentally, and non-theologically to
alleviate some of the obvious sufferings in the world -- hunger, disease,
illiteracy, war, religious strife, crime, social disorganization, etc.
When I lived in Africa as a Peace Corps Volunteer, I meet a number of
missionaries and other once very religious people of various faiths who came to
Africa originally to spread their religious beliefs.
The pursuit of the alleviation of suffering and the physical improvement of
the general conditions of life for many of these people soon became the meaning
of and center for their existence. Religious beliefs, if not abandoned for many
of these people, became a very less important part of their lives. Their
faiths, like Albert Schweitzer's were greatly altered. I know because I worked
with and enjoyed several of these people. They openly and unabashedly talked
about their spiritual transformation and their determination to help those less
fortunate than themselves in a multitude of non-spiritual ways.
Many formerly very religious persons believed that in the overall scheme of
the universe as they came to see it, preventing glaucoma or teaching Africans to
farm productively enriched humankind a great deal more than such self-serving
activities like building churches, making doubtful converts, or singing hymns.
Wayne
Art Deco (Wayne Fox)
deco@moscow.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Engerbretson
To: Art Deco aka W. Fox ; vision2020@moscow.com
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 10:19 AM
Subject: Re:Re:Re:Re: [Vision2020] Ted's answer to Eric E.
Thanks for taking the time to write such a clear and well-written bunch o'
thoughts, Wayne. Very cogent. And I mean that sincerely.
But, regardless of how well it can be proven that none of us can prove who
is right-- someone still IS closer to the Truth, and I'm going to keep trying to
find out who they are.
Eric E.
On May 28, 2004, at 9:21 AM, Art Deco aka W. Fox wrote:
All,
At the risk of sounding like a broken record and probably offending almost
everyone again, here are a few comments on the current Eric E. vs.. other V 2020
posters thread.
There are tens of thousands of different systemic religious beliefs, each
contradictory to each of the others. Unless you can present cogent evidence
that a contradiction is not always a false statement, this means that only one,
if any, of these different religious views is true. Compounding this problem is
the fact that many adherents of many of these religious beliefs are, like Eric,
absolutely convinced that their way is the only absolutely true way.
The tens of thousands of systemic religious beliefs is an understatement.
If we consider the nuances of individual belief, the are probably billions of
different religious beliefs.
The problem is that, so far, no method has been found that provides a clear,
acceptable, universal way to decide the truth of particular
statements/assertions referencing alleged supernatural beings and occurrences.
If there were such a method, this discussion would not be occurring -- not
only on V 2020, but in millions of other places. There is no argument about the
specific gravity and the conductibility of copper, the tensile strength of alloy
X2314, or other beliefs that are used to send humankind to the moon and
broadcast that event in real-time.
The existence of the above problem of knowledge should give rational persons
a great deal of pause before asserting with apodictic rigor the truth of any
particular set of superstitious/religious beliefs such as Christianity, Islam,
Judaism, God as Space Traveler, Gods who Live in a Volcano, Pan, etc. The
probability of any particular religious/superstitious system being true appears
miniscule. This pause should also limit attempting to control/limit other's
lives based solely on these superstitious/religious beliefs. [Other
considerations appear at the end for those that do not get bored/disgusted
before arriving there.]
With regard to ethical statements, a somewhat similar situation exists.
However, since all of us must act, there are various systems which attempt to
provide a practical answers to ethical questions. Some of these ethical systems
are, in great part, empirically based. In these systems, facts are considered
and ethical truths are subject to testing and to modification based on
experience.
Anthropological investigations of many different societies appear to
demonstrate that ethical beliefs generally arise out of practical
considerations. These ethical beliefs occur before the superstitious/religious
foundations which eventually are used to propagandize belief in and to buttress
obedience to such ethical beliefs.
Life is a constant, sometimes very difficult struggle. An observably
contingent universe provides many uncertainties and unpleasantries. All of us
have various means of coping with various parts of this struggle. Many of these
coping mechanisms involve fantasy. Psychologists call them defense mechanisms.
Those who have read modern psychology know there are a great number of these
mechanisms that have been identified, e.g., rationalization, projection,
reaction formation, etc.
For example, probably all of us had an imaginary friend and/or ascribed
to/fantasized about the actions/emotions of real friends. Defense mechanisms
allow us to cope with and to alleviate in the short term many unpleasant
feelings and to defend our personas against unpleasant truths. The use of these
coping mechanisms when not confused with reality in the long term are normal and
generally healthy.
The problems with the use of defense mechanisms begin to appear when the
person believes the fantasies driven or engendered by these defense mechanisms
correspond to reality. When the fantasies/delusions reach certain levels of
unreality, such as believing in contradictory statements, believing in
existential statements contrary to or not supported by evidence, or, in
particular, believing that a particular person controls the weather for a
region, then such defense mechanisms become pathological to various degrees.
Many non-believers such as myself do not find all superstitious/religious
beliefs to be "evil." Such beliefs provide solace in times of grief, provide
moral guidance for some, provide a sense of community/belonging for some,
provide comfort from the vicissitudes of life's struggle, etc. Although the
truth of such beliefs is highly doubtful, to the extent that
religious/superstitious beliefs provide relative peace, well-being, individual
growth, etc. non- believers are not upset by such matters.
The problem for non-believers and many believers alike arises when
religious/superstitious beliefs are use to proscribe the actions of others who
do not share the particular superstitions of the proscriber.
In plain terms, many see that solely using superstition/religion and
ignorance to limit the freedom, aspirations, individual growth opportunities,
non-criminal life styles, etc. of other people is little short of colossal
egotism and is an logically/epistemologically unwarranted intrusion on personal
liberty.
Eric and his fellow believes are clearly free to indulge in, use as coping
mechanisms, and to argue for their particular superstitious/religious beliefs.
If Eric's beliefs provide comfort for him, fine. However, when Eric and his
fellow travelers use their particular beliefs to condemn, to attempt to impose
guilt upon, and/or to outlaw the non-criminal freedom of others, then because
there is little or no logical/epistemological support for Eric's beliefs,
conflict, often acrimonious and sometimes deadly, arises. If Eric were a
Christian living in Saudi Arabia, he would understand this position much more
clearly.
When gender based, race based, sexual orientation based, etc. roles are
limited not by a discussion of observable consequences but by superstition and
ignorance, we all lose not only our own freedom of choice, but the contributions
those who are limited can make to our lives as well as to their own.
If you have had the patience to struggle through the above, thank you.
In closing, here is one general problem of many that arises out of certain
kinds of religious/superstitious beliefs.
General Observation: If one expects others to act in a certain manner to
achieve certain goals in given situations, then clarity of purpose and procedure
is essential.
Specific Instance: When desiring employees to provide excellent customer
service, for example, a good manager carefully explains/re-explains to each
employee clearly and unequivocally which behaviors/attitudes/etc. (and the
purposes of such behaviors/attitudes/etc.) are required to reach the goal of
excellent customer service. The clearer, more careful, more detailed the
instruction, the greater the probability that the employees will perform
correctly. Moreover, the instructions given about good customer service are a
result of years of experimentation and observation -- the results of such
instructions are verifiable. Newer experiences can and frequently do
modify/expand the instructions.
If there is such a thing as eternal life, and if there is a way to achieve
such, then the importance of such an accomplishment greatly exceeds the
importance of giving good customer service.
If there is some being(s) in charge of deciding who is to be eternally
rewarded/punished, she/he/it/they appear to be very inept managers.
Given the undeniable reality of the plurality of many different religions,
the difference in their ethical pronouncements, the differences in their alleged
paths to eternity, the amount of death, heinous suffering, and displacement the
practice of these religions have historically (and in the present) bestowed upon
humankind, etc., it is undeniable that clear, verifiable instructions from some
alleged deity(s) to achieve eternal reward are obviously lacking. (If not, this
discussion would not be occurring.)
In reality, all things considered, alleged gods as a guides to eternal
rewards appear to be colossal bumblers -- certainly less effective than the
poorest of human managers.
Given the human needs that drive humankind towards the plurality of
religious beliefs, it is of very small probability that the words above will
influence anyone to any degree. However, I write them with hope that they may
encourage a few to examine more closely their sexist, homophobic, racist,
pro-slavery, anti-secular, anti-egalitarian, anti-innovation, and/or
anti-liberty points of view.
If you have read this far, thank you. Perhaps I can treat you to a banana
split at the Elk River Dairy Queen.
Wayne
Art Deco (Wayne Fox)
deco@moscow.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Tbertruss@aol.com
To: eric@eric-e.com ; vision2020@moscow.com
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 11:09 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] Ted's answer to Eric E.
Eric:
We can agree to disagree, amicably, but you backpedaled rather vigorously
from wording that did not seem to imply as much "between the lines"
interpretation as you now claim the words required. If a code book is needed to
decipher your true meaning, perhaps you could post it on the web?
Where the rubber meets the road, Eric, is that I will not deny your faith
may be the absolute truth, yet your faith demands that you assert my
spirituality, not based on Christ's divinity, is absolutely false!
Here we diverge in ways not trivial that impact the power vectors of
spirituality in how we seek to alter the world!
And you can make whatever you wish of that comment, which implies a tome or
two.
Ted Moffett
The Nuart Theatre
208-882-0459 (lobby, no message)
208-883-0997 (CCM, leave message)
516 S Main, Moscow ID 83843
eric@eric-e.com
http://www.ccmbooks.org
The Nuart Theatre
208-882-0459 (lobby, no message)
208-883-0997 (CCM, leave message)
516 S Main, Moscow ID 83843
eric@eric-e.com
http://www.ccmbooks.org
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<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Eric,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Your reply seems to indicate that you did not =
understand=20
either of my two previous emails.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Perhaps that was to be expected. Those that =
did=20
understand them know what the probable diagnosis is.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>On the point of your message below: I can =
tell you=20
as a former worker in a third world country, most of those whom =
"spiritual help"=20
is offered to/foisted upon do not appreciate it and only pretend to =
listen in=20
order to get material help like curing their diseases, learning to farm =
more=20
productively, learning to read, etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>It hard for them to worry about some strange concept =
of a god,=20
of whom even the most uneducated African living in the back country =
evinces a=20
great deal of skepticism, when they are continually hungry or have =
Madura=20
Foot, Sheep Liver Fluke, or Schistosomiasis.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>As I indicated before, offering spiritual help based =
upon some=20
superstitious being or ghost-in-the-machine is a highly dubious, =
supremely=20
egomaniacal undertaking.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Further, ascribing to some alleged=20
<STRONG>all-powerful</STRONG> god the dictum of "you must =
adore/acknowledge me"=20
seems horribly inconsistent, grossly insulting, and =
anthropomorphic. =20
If some alleged god is <STRONG>all-powerful</STRONG> then she/he/it is =
certainly=20
beyond the puerile human weakness/frailty of needing constant =
reassurance and=20
acknowledgement. Saying that this alleged =
<STRONG>all-powerful</STRONG>=20
god needs/demands adoration appears a far worse insult to she/he/it =
than=20
the mere denial of its alleged being. Freud called it Father Image =
Worship=20
and diagnosised it as a childish neurosis.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4><BR>Wayne</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Art Deco (Wayne Fox)<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR></DIV>
<P><B></B><!--EndFragment--></P></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4> </DIV>
<P><B></B><!--EndFragment--></P></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Deric@eric-e.com href=3D"mailto:eric@eric-e.com">Eric =
Engerbretson</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Ddeco@moscow.com=20
href=3D"mailto:deco@moscow.com">Art Deco aka W. Fox</A> ; <A=20
title=3Dvision2020@moscow.com=20
href=3D"mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, May 29, 2004 =
11:56=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Ted's =
answer to=20
Eric E.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Wayne,<BR><BR>Again, great thoughts on your =
part.<BR><BR>I=20
appreciate very much the need to meed the physical needs of the =
world's=20
masses, especially since God commands me in the Bible to feed the =
hungry, and=20
minister to the poor and sick. <BR><BR>I will gladly do these things =
(at the=20
moment, only with my money), to the degree that a person needs to be =
fed and=20
healthy to be able to understand a presentation of the Gospel, and =
then to be=20
helped to live a life pleasing to God.<BR>But humanitarianism as an =
end to=20
itself, is helping only half of the man. The Bible says, "What does it =
profit=20
a man if he gains the world and loses his soul?" <BR><BR>What good =
does it do=20
for me to feed and clothe a man and leave him so that he can happily =
and=20
warmly go spend an eternity without God? As Nick said with his Max =
Planck=20
quote, it is folly to artificially separate a man's physicality and=20
spirituality. Any attempts to do so are only illusions, and are a =
band-aid on=20
a bullet hole. That is why I think wholistic medicine, and =
preventative=20
health, and Eastern medicine are on the right track. They respect the =
whole=20
man.<BR><BR>So, yes, I would love to do a Peace Corps mission. But to =
ignore=20
the spirituality of the people I would be helping would be to harm =
them. My=20
Peace Corps mission would emphasize the most important "Peace", the =
peace=20
between God and man.<BR><BR>Far more tragic than a poor person =
starving to=20
death and going to spend eternity with God is a healthy, well-clothed =
person=20
living a long wasteful life and then going to spend eternity without=20
God.<BR><BR>Best regards,<BR><BR>Eric E.<BR><BR><BR>On May 28, 2004, =
at 1:16=20
PM, Art Deco aka W. Fox wrote:<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><?bigger><?bigger>Eric, et =
al,<?/bigger><?/bigger><BR> <BR><?bigger><?bigger>When searching =
for=20
"the truth" it may be useful to understand that some statements are =
neither=20
true nor false. For =
example:<?/bigger><?/bigger><BR> <BR><?bigger><?bigger>"The square =
root=20
of blue recrystalizes =
sodomy."<?/bigger><?/bigger><BR> <BR><?bigger><?bigger>Just because =
words can be strung together in an apparently syntactically =
correct=20
sentence doesn't meant the sentence has a comprehensible, literal,=20
=
testable meaning.<?/bigger><?/bigger><BR> <BR><?bigger><?bigger=
>In=20
your quest for "the truth" you might watch out for these kind=20
of assertions. Religion, philosophy, politics, etc. are =
rife with=20
such statements. These assertions are generally =
recognizable=20
by the practical impossibility of being neither unequivocally =
confirmable=20
nor falsifiable. The latter is often especially the =
case.<?/bigger><?/bigger><BR> <BR><?bigger><?bigger>A parable =
derived=20
from an example written by an apostate Catholic disciple of=20
Wittgenstein may be helpful as an illustration to =
you. <?/bigger><?/bigger><BR><?bigger><?bigger><?/bigger><?/bigger>&=
nbsp;<BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?param Times New =
Roman><?bigger><?bigger>Neighbors=20
A & B were having an over-the-back-fence =
discussion:<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><=
?param Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>A: =20
I heard you have a new kind of powerful watchdog or =
something.<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?=
param Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>B: =20
Yes, it is called the =
Odg.<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?param =
Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>A: =20
What does it =
do?<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?param =
Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>B: =20
It watches over us continually and protects us and our property from =
harm.<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?param=
Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>A: =20
I haven't seen anything. Where is =
it?<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?param =
Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>B: =20
The Odg is =
invisible.<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?=
param Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>A: =20
I have heard any barking or=20
=
anything.<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?p=
aram Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>B: =20
The Odg makes no =
sound.<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?para=
m Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>A: =20
You don't have a fence. How do you keep the Odg =
in?<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?param =
Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>B: =20
The Odg stays with us always. It is the loving nature of the =
Odg to do=20
=
so.<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?param =
Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>A: =20
Your lawn is immaculate. I don't see any Odg droppings at =
all.<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?param =
Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>B: =20
The Odg never eats. Consequently, it makes no droppings. =
It=20
doesn't slobber or have bad breath=20
=
either.<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?par=
am Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>A: =20
Tell me again what it =
does.<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?param=
Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>B: =20
It watches over us and protects us from all harms. It requires =
only=20
unquestioning belief on our part in =
return.<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?par=
am Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>A: =20
But wasn't your home robbed of everything of value, weren't you =
badly beaten=20
up, and wasn't your wife taken for and enjoyed a =
month-long sexual=20
romp by a motorcycle gang a few months =
ago?<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><?fontfamily><?param =
Times New Roman><?bigger><?bigger>B: =20
Yes, but it must of been good for us, else the Odg would not have =
let it=20
=
happen.<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/fontfamily><BR> <BR><BR><?bigger><?big=
ger> <?/bigger><?/bigger><BR><?bigger><?bigger>Eric,=20
I hope you are a sincere person who wishes to better the =
world. <?/bigger><?/bigger><BR><?bigger><?bigger> <?/bigger><?/=
bigger><BR><?bigger><?bigger>After=20
understanding the above parable and its ramifications, perhaps you =
might=20
consider shifting the focus of your faith and the use of your =
talents from=20
proselytization to working directly, non-judgmentally, and=20
non-theologically to alleviate some of the obvious sufferings in the =
world=20
-- hunger, disease, illiteracy, war, religious strife, crime, social =
disorganization, =
etc.<?/bigger><?/bigger><BR><?bigger><?bigger> <?/bigger><?/bigger><=
BR><?bigger><?bigger>When=20
I lived in Africa as a Peace Corps Volunteer, I meet a number of=20
missionaries and other once very religious people of various faiths =
who came=20
to Africa originally to spread their religious =
beliefs. <?/bigger><?/bigger><BR><?bigger><?bigger> <?/bigger><=
?/bigger><BR><?bigger><?bigger>The=20
pursuit of the alleviation of suffering and the physical improvement =
of the general conditions of life for many of these =
people=20
soon became the meaning of and center for their existence. =
Religious=20
beliefs, if not abandoned for many of these people, became a very =
less=20
important part of their lives. Their faiths, like Albert =
Schweitzer's=20
were greatly altered. I know because I worked with and enjoyed =
several=20
of these people. They openly and unabashedly talked about =
their=20
spiritual transformation and their determination to help those less=20
fortunate than themselves in a multitude of non-spiritual =
ways.<?/bigger><?/bigger><BR><?bigger><?bigger> <?/bigger><?/bigger>=
<BR><?bigger><?bigger>Many=20
formerly very religious persons believed that in the overall scheme =
of the=20
universe as they came to see it, preventing glaucoma or=20
teaching Africans to farm productively enriched humankind =
a great=20
deal more than such self-serving activities like building churches,=20
making doubtful converts, or singing=20
=
hymns.<?/bigger><?/bigger><BR><BR><?bigger><?bigger>Wayne<?/bigger><?/big=
ger><BR><?bigger><?bigger> <?/bigger><?/bigger><BR><?bigger><?bigger=
>Art=20
Deco (Wayne Fox)<?/bigger><?/bigger><BR><?color><?param =
0000,0000,EEEE><?bigger><?bigger>deco@moscow.com<?/bigger><?/bigger><?/co=
lor><BR><?fontfamily><?param =
Arial><?smaller><?smaller><?x-tad-smaller>-----=20
Original Message=20
=
-----<?/x-tad-smaller><?/smaller><?/smaller><?/fontfamily></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR><?fontfamily><?param =
Arial><?smaller><?smaller><?x-tad-smaller><?/x-tad-smaller><B><?x-tad-sma=
ller>From:<?/x-tad-smaller></B><?x-tad-smaller>=20
<?/x-tad-smaller><?color><?param 0000,0000,EEEE><?x-tad-smaller>Eric=20
Engerbretson<?/x-tad-smaller><?/color><?x-tad-smaller> =
<?/x-tad-smaller><?/smaller><?/smaller><?/fontfamily></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR><B><?fontfamily><?param =
Arial><?smaller><?smaller><?x-tad-smaller>To:<?/x-tad-smaller><?/smaller>=
<?/smaller><?/fontfamily></B><?fontfamily><?param =
Arial><?smaller><?smaller><?x-tad-smaller>=20
<?/x-tad-smaller><?color><?param 0000,0000,EEEE><?x-tad-smaller>Art Deco =
aka=20
W. Fox<?/x-tad-smaller><?/color><?x-tad-smaller> ; =
<?/x-tad-smaller><?color><?param =
0000,0000,EEEE><?x-tad-smaller>vision2020@moscow.com<?/x-tad-smaller><?/c=
olor><?x-tad-smaller>=20
<?/x-tad-smaller><?/smaller><?/smaller><?/fontfamily></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR><B><?fontfamily><?param =
Arial><?smaller><?smaller><?x-tad-smaller>Sent:<?/x-tad-smaller><?/smalle=
r><?/smaller><?/fontfamily></B><?fontfamily><?param =
Arial><?smaller><?smaller><?x-tad-smaller>=20
Friday, May 28, 2004 10:19 =
AM<?/x-tad-smaller><?/smaller><?/smaller><?/fontfamily></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR><B><?fontfamily><?param =
Arial><?smaller><?smaller><?x-tad-smaller>Subject:<?/x-tad-smaller><?/sma=
ller><?/smaller><?/fontfamily></B><?fontfamily><?param =
Arial><?smaller><?smaller><?x-tad-smaller>=20
Re:Re:Re:Re: [Vision2020] Ted's answer to Eric =
E.<?/x-tad-smaller><?/smaller><?/smaller><?/fontfamily></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Thanks for taking the time to write such a clear =
and=20
well-written bunch o' thoughts, Wayne. Very cogent. And I mean that=20
sincerely.<BR><BR>But, regardless of how well it can be proven that =
none of=20
us can prove who is right-- someone still IS closer to the Truth, =
and I'm=20
going to keep trying to find out who they are.<BR><BR>Eric =
E.<BR><BR><BR>On=20
May 28, 2004, at 9:21 AM, Art Deco aka W. Fox=20
wrote:<BR><BR><BR>All,<BR> <BR>At the risk of sounding like a =
broken=20
record and probably offending almost everyone again, here are a few =
comments=20
on the current Eric E. vs.. other V 2020 posters =
thread.<BR> <BR>There=20
are tens of thousands of different systemic religious beliefs, each=20
contradictory to each of the others. Unless you can =
present=20
cogent evidence that a contradiction is not always a false =
statement, this=20
means that only one, if any, of these different religious views is=20
true. Compounding this problem is the fact that many adherents =
of many=20
of these religious beliefs are, like Eric, absolutely convinced =
that=20
their way is the only absolutely true way.<BR> <BR>The tens of=20
thousands of systemic religious beliefs is an understatement. =
If we=20
consider the nuances of individual belief, the are probably billions =
of=20
different religious beliefs.<BR> <BR><B>The problem is that, so =
far, no=20
method has been found that provides a clear, acceptable, =
universal way=20
to decide the truth of particular statements/assertions referencing=20
alleged supernatural beings and =
occurrences.</B><BR> <BR>If there=20
were such a method, this discussion would not be occurring =
-- not only=20
on V 2020, but in millions of other places. There is no =
argument about=20
the specific gravity and the conductibility of copper, the =
tensile=20
strength of alloy X2314, or other beliefs that are used to send =
humankind to=20
the moon and broadcast that event in real-time.<BR> <BR>The =
existence=20
of the above problem of knowledge should give rational =
persons a=20
great deal of pause before asserting with apodictic rigor the truth =
of any=20
particular set of superstitious/religious beliefs such as =
Christianity,=20
Islam, Judaism, God as Space Traveler, Gods who Live in a Volcano, =
Pan,=20
etc. The probability of any particular religious/superstitious =
system=20
being true appears miniscule. This pause should also limit=20
attempting to control/limit other's lives based solely on =
these=20
superstitious/religious beliefs. [Other considerations appear =
at the=20
end for those that do not get bored/disgusted before arriving=20
there.]<BR> <BR>With regard to ethical statements, a somewhat =
similar=20
situation exists. However, since all of us must act, there are =
various=20
systems which attempt to provide a practical answers to ethical=20
questions. Some of these ethical systems are, in great part,=20
empirically based. In these systems, facts are considered and =
ethical=20
truths are subject to testing and to modification based on=20
experience.<BR> <BR>Anthropological investigations of many =
different=20
societies appear to demonstrate that ethical beliefs =
generally=20
arise out of practical considerations. These ethical beliefs =
occur=20
before the superstitious/religious foundations which eventually are =
used to=20
propagandize belief in and to buttress obedience to such ethical=20
beliefs.<BR> <BR> <BR>Life is a constant, sometimes very =
difficult=20
struggle. An observably contingent universe provides many=20
uncertainties and unpleasantries. All of us have various means =
of=20
coping with various parts of this struggle. Many of these =
coping=20
mechanisms involve fantasy. Psychologists call them defense=20
mechanisms. Those who have read modern psychology know there =
are a=20
great number of these mechanisms that have been identified, e.g.,=20
rationalization, projection, reaction formation, =
etc.<BR> <BR>For=20
example, probably all of us had an imaginary friend and/or ascribed=20
to/fantasized about the actions/emotions of real =
friends. Defense=20
mechanisms allow us to cope with and to alleviate in the short =
term=20
many unpleasant feelings and to defend our personas against =
unpleasant=20
truths. The use of these coping mechanisms when not confused =
with=20
reality in the long term are normal and generally =
healthy.<BR> <BR>The=20
problems with the use of defense mechanisms begin to appear =
when the=20
person believes the fantasies driven or engendered by these defense=20
mechanisms correspond to reality. When the fantasies/delusions =
reach=20
certain levels of unreality, such as believing in contradictory=20
statements, believing in existential statements contrary =
to or not=20
supported by evidence, or, in particular, believing that a =
particular=20
person controls the weather for a region, then such defense =
mechanisms=20
become pathological to various degrees.<BR> <BR>Many =
non-believers=20
such as myself do not find all superstitious/religious beliefs to be =
"evil." Such beliefs provide solace in times of grief, provide =
moral=20
guidance for some, provide a sense of community/belonging for some, =
provide=20
comfort from the vicissitudes of life's struggle, etc. =
Although the=20
truth of such beliefs is highly doubtful, to the extent that=20
religious/superstitious beliefs provide relative peace, well-being,=20
individual growth, etc. non- believers are not upset by such=20
matters.<BR> <BR>The problem for non-believers and many =
believers alike=20
arises when religious/superstitious beliefs are use to proscribe the =
actions=20
of others who do not share the particular superstitions of the=20
proscriber.<BR> <BR>In plain terms, many see that solely using=20
superstition/religion and ignorance to limit the freedom, =
aspirations,=20
individual growth opportunities, non-criminal life styles,=20
etc. of other people is little short of colossal egotism =
and is an=20
logically/epistemologically unwarranted intrusion on personal=20
liberty.<BR> <BR>Eric and his fellow believes are clearly free =
to=20
indulge in, use as coping mechanisms, and to argue for their =
particular=20
superstitious/religious beliefs. If Eric's beliefs provide =
comfort for=20
him, fine. However, when Eric and his fellow travelers use =
their=20
particular beliefs to condemn, to attempt to impose guilt upon, =
and/or to=20
outlaw the non-criminal freedom of others, then because there is =
little or=20
no logical/epistemological support for Eric's beliefs, conflict, =
often=20
acrimonious and sometimes deadly, arises. If Eric were a =
Christian=20
living in Saudi Arabia, he would understand this position much more=20
clearly.<BR> <BR>When gender based, race based, sexual =
orientation=20
based, etc. roles are limited not by a discussion of observable =
consequences=20
but by superstition and ignorance, we all lose not only our own =
freedom of=20
choice, but the contributions those who are limited can make to our =
lives as=20
well as to their own.<BR> <BR>If you have had the patience to =
struggle=20
through the above, thank you.<BR> <BR>In closing, here =
is one=20
general problem of many that arises out of certain kinds of=20
religious/superstitious beliefs.<BR> <BR>General =
Observation: If=20
one expects others to act in a certain manner to achieve certain=20
goals in given situations, then clarity of purpose and =
procedure is=20
essential.<BR> <BR>Specific Instance: When desiring =
employees to=20
provide excellent customer service, for example, a good manager =
carefully=20
explains/re-explains to each employee clearly and unequivocally =
which=20
behaviors/attitudes/etc. (and the purposes of such =
behaviors/attitudes/etc.)=20
are required to reach the goal of excellent customer service. =
The=20
clearer, more careful, more detailed the instruction, the =
greater=20
the probability that the employees will perform correctly. =
Moreover,=20
the instructions given about good customer service are a result of =
years of=20
experimentation and observation -- the results of such instructions =
are=20
verifiable. Newer experiences can and frequently do =
modify/expand the=20
instructions.<BR> <BR>If there is such a thing as eternal life, =
and if=20
there is a way to achieve such, then the importance of such an=20
accomplishment greatly exceeds the importance of giving good =
customer=20
service.<BR> <BR>If there is some being(s) in charge of =
deciding who is=20
to be eternally rewarded/punished, she/he/it/they appear to be very =
inept=20
managers.<BR> <BR>Given the undeniable reality of the plurality =
of many=20
different religions, the difference in their ethical pronouncements, =
the=20
differences in their alleged paths to eternity, the amount of death, =
heinous=20
suffering, and displacement the practice of these religions have=20
historically (and in the present) bestowed upon humankind, etc., it =
is=20
undeniable that clear, verifiable instructions from some =
alleged=20
deity(s) to achieve eternal reward are obviously lacking. =
(If=20
not, this discussion would not be occurring.)<BR> <BR>In =
reality, all=20
things considered, alleged gods as a guides to eternal rewards =
appear to=20
be colossal bumblers -- certainly less effective than the =
poorest of=20
human managers.<BR> <BR>Given the human needs that drive =
humankind=20
towards the plurality of religious beliefs, it is of very small =
probability=20
that the words above will influence anyone to any degree. =
However, I=20
write them with hope that they may encourage a few to examine more =
closely=20
their sexist, homophobic, racist, pro-slavery, anti-secular,=20
anti-egalitarian, anti-innovation, and/or anti-liberty points =
of=20
view.<BR> <BR>If you have read this far, thank you. =
Perhaps=20
I can treat you to a banana split at the Elk River Dairy=20
Queen.<BR><BR><BR>Wayne<BR> <BR>Art Deco (Wayne=20
=
Fox)<BR>deco@moscow.com<BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> =
<BR> <BR> <BR>-----=20
Original Message -----<BR><BR><B>From:</B>=20
Tbertruss@aol.com<BR><BR><B>To:</B> eric@eric-e.com ;=20
vision2020@moscow.com<BR><BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 27, 2004 =
11:09=20
PM<BR><BR><B>Subject:</B> [Vision2020] Ted's answer to Eric=20
E.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Eric:<BR><BR>We can agree to disagree, amicably, =
but you=20
backpedaled rather vigorously from wording that did not seem to =
imply as=20
much "between the lines" interpretation as you now claim the words=20
required. If a code book is needed to decipher your true =
meaning,=20
perhaps you could post it on the web?<BR><BR>Where the rubber meets =
the=20
road, Eric, is that I will not deny your faith may be the absolute =
truth,=20
yet your faith demands that you assert my spirituality, not based on =
Christ's divinity, is absolutely false!<BR><BR>Here we diverge in =
ways not=20
trivial that impact the power vectors of spirituality in how we seek =
to=20
alter the world!<BR><BR>And you can make whatever you wish of that =
comment,=20
which implies a tome or two.<BR><BR>Ted =
Moffett<BR><BR><BR><BR><B><I>The=20
Nuart Theatre</I></B><BR><B><I>208-882-0459 (lobby, no=20
message)</I></B><BR><B><I>208-883-0997 (CCM, leave=20
message)</I></B><BR><B><I>516 S Main, Moscow ID=20
=
83843</I></B><BR><B><I>eric@eric-e.com</I></B><BR><B><I>http://www.ccmboo=
ks.org</I></B><BR><BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><B><I><?fontfamily><?param =
Arial><?color><?param 8080,0000,0000><?bigger><?x-tad-bigger><BR><BR>The =
Nuart =
Theatre<?/x-tad-bigger><?/bigger><?/color><?/fontfamily></I></B><B><I><?f=
ontfamily><?param Arial><?color><?param =
9999,9999,9999><BR><?smaller><?smaller><?x-tad-smaller>208-882-0459=20
(lobby, no message)<BR>208-883-0997 (CCM, leave message)<BR>516 S =
Main, Moscow=20
ID =
83843<BR>eric@eric-e.com<BR>http://www.ccmbooks.org<BR><BR><?/x-tad-small=
er><?/smaller><?/smaller><?/color><?/fontfamily></I></B><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>=
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