[Vision2020] Ted's answer to Eric E.

[Eric Engerbretson]

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Wayne,

Again, great thoughts on your part.

I appreciate very much the need to meed the physical needs of the=20
world's masses, especially since God commands me in the Bible to feed=20
the hungry, and minister to the poor and sick.

I will gladly do these things (at the moment, only with my money), to=20
the degree that a person needs to be fed and healthy to be able to=20
understand a presentation of the Gospel, and then to be helped to live=20=

a life pleasing to God.
But humanitarianism as an end to itself, is helping only half of the=20
man. The Bible says, "What does it profit a man if he gains the world=20
and loses his soul?"

What good does it do for me to feed and clothe a man and leave him so=20
that he can happily and warmly go spend an eternity without God?  As=20
Nick said with his Max Planck quote, it is folly to artificially=20
separate a man's physicality and spirituality.  Any attempts to do so=20
are only illusions, and are a band-aid on a bullet hole.  That is why I=20=

think wholistic medicine, and preventative health, and Eastern medicine=20=

are on the right track. They respect the whole man.

So, yes, I would love to do a Peace Corps mission. But to ignore the=20
spirituality of the people I would be helping would be to harm them. =20
My Peace Corps mission would emphasize the most important "Peace", the=20=

peace between God and man.

Far more tragic than a poor person starving to death and going to spend=20=

eternity with God is a healthy, well-clothed person living a long=20
wasteful life and then going to spend eternity without God.

Best regards,

Eric E.


On May 28, 2004, at 1:16 PM, Art Deco aka W. Fox wrote:

> Eric, et al,
> =A0
> When searching for "the truth" it may be useful to understand that=20
> some statements are neither true nor false.=A0 For example:
> =A0
> "The square root of blue recrystalizes sodomy."
> =A0
> Just because words can be strung together in an=20
> apparently=A0syntactically correct sentence doesn't meant the sentence=20=

> has a comprehensible, literal, testable=A0meaning.
> =A0
> In your quest for "the truth" you might watch out for=A0these kind=20
> of=A0assertions.=A0 Religion, philosophy, politics, etc. are rife with=20=

> such statements.=A0=A0These assertions=A0are generally recognizable by =
the=20
> practical impossibility of being neither unequivocally confirmable nor=20=

> falsifiable.=A0 The latter is often especially the case.
> =A0
> A parable derived from an example written by an apostate=20
> Catholic=A0disciple of Wittgenstein may be helpful as an illustration =
to=20
> you.=A0
>  =A0
> =A0
> Neighbors A & B were having an over-the-back-fence discussion:
> =A0
> A:=A0=A0=A0 I heard you have a new kind of powerful watchdog or =
something.
> =A0
> B:=A0=A0=A0 Yes, it is called the Odg.
> =A0
> A:=A0=A0=A0 What does it do?
> =A0
> B:=A0=A0=A0 It watches over us continually and protects us and our =
property=20
> from harm.
> =A0
> A:=A0=A0=A0 I haven't seen anything.=A0 Where is it?
> =A0
> B:=A0=A0=A0 The Odg is invisible.
> =A0
> A:=A0=A0=A0 I have heard any barking or anything.
> =A0
> B:=A0=A0=A0 The Odg makes=A0no sound.
> =A0
> A:=A0=A0=A0 You don't have a fence.=A0 How do you keep the Odg in?
> =A0
> B:=A0=A0=A0 The Odg stays with us always.=A0 It is the loving nature =
of the=20
> Odg to do so.
> =A0
> A:=A0=A0=A0 Your lawn is immaculate.=A0 I don't see any Odg droppings =
at all.
> =A0
> B:=A0=A0=A0 The Odg never eats.=A0 Consequently, it makes no =
droppings.=A0 It=20
> doesn't slobber or have bad breath either.
> =A0
> A:=A0=A0=A0 Tell me again what it does.
> =A0
> B:=A0=A0=A0 It watches over us and protects us from all harms.=A0 It =
requires=20
> only unquestioning belief on our part in return.
> =A0
> A:=A0=A0=A0 But wasn't your home robbed of everything of value, =
weren't you=20
> badly beaten up,=A0and wasn't your wife taken=A0for and enjoyed a=20
> month-long sexual romp by a motorcycle gang a few months ago?
> =A0
> B:=A0=A0=A0 Yes, but it must of been good for us, else the Odg would =
not=20
> have let it happen.
> =A0
>
> =A0
> Eric, I hope you are a sincere person who wishes to better the world.=A0=

>  =A0
> After understanding the above parable and its ramifications, perhaps=20=

> you might consider shifting the focus of your faith and the use of=20
> your talents from proselytization to working=A0directly,=20
> non-judgmentally, and non-theologically to alleviate some of the=20
> obvious sufferings in the world -- hunger, disease, illiteracy, war,=20=

> religious strife, crime, social disorganization, etc.
> =A0
> When I lived in Africa as a Peace Corps Volunteer, I meet a number of=20=

> missionaries and other once very religious people of various faiths=20
> who came to Africa originally to spread their religious beliefs.=A0
>  =A0
> The pursuit of the alleviation of suffering and the physical=20
> improvement of=A0the general conditions of=A0life=A0for many of these =
people=20
> soon became the meaning of and center for their existence.=A0 =
Religious=20
> beliefs, if not abandoned for many of these people, became a very less=20=

> important part of their lives.=A0 Their faiths, like Albert =
Schweitzer's=20
> were greatly altered.=A0 I know because I worked with and enjoyed=20
> several of these people.=A0 They openly and unabashedly talked about=20=

> their spiritual transformation and their determination to help those=20=

> less fortunate than themselves in a multitude of non-spiritual ways.
> =A0
> Many formerly very religious persons believed that in the overall=20
> scheme of the universe as they came to see it, preventing glaucoma or=20=

> teaching=A0Africans to farm=A0productively enriched humankind a great =
deal=20
> more than such self-serving activities like building churches,=20
> making=A0doubtful converts,=A0or singing hymns.
>
> Wayne
> =A0
> Art Deco=A0 (Wayne Fox)
> deco@moscow.com
> ----- Original Message -----
>  From: Eric Engerbretson
> To: Art Deco aka W. Fox ; vision2020@moscow.com
> Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 10:19 AM
> Subject: Re:Re:Re:Re: [Vision2020] Ted's answer to Eric E.
>
> Thanks for taking the time to write such a clear and well-written=20
> bunch o' thoughts, Wayne. Very cogent. And I mean that sincerely.
>
> But, regardless of how well it can be proven that none of us can prove=20=

> who is right-- someone still IS closer to the Truth, and I'm going to=20=

> keep trying to find out who they are.
>
> Eric E.
>
>
> On May 28, 2004, at 9:21 AM, Art Deco aka W. Fox wrote:
>
>
> All,
> =A0
> At the risk of sounding like a broken record and probably offending=20
> almost everyone again, here are a few comments on the current Eric E.=20=

> vs.. other V 2020 posters thread.
> =A0
> There are tens of thousands of different systemic religious beliefs,=20=

> each contradictory to=A0 each of the others.=A0=A0Unless you can =
present=20
> cogent evidence that a contradiction is not always a false statement,=20=

> this means that only one, if any, of these different religious views=20=

> is true.=A0 Compounding this problem is the fact that many adherents =
of=20
> many of these religious beliefs=A0are, like Eric, absolutely convinced=20=

> that their way is the only absolutely true way.
> =A0
> The tens of thousands of systemic religious beliefs is an=20
> understatement.=A0 If we consider the nuances of individual belief, =
the=20
> are probably billions of different religious beliefs.
> =A0
> The problem is that, so far, no method has been found that provides a=20=

> clear, acceptable, universal=A0way to decide the truth of particular=20=

> statements/assertions referencing alleged=A0supernatural beings and=20
> occurrences.
> =A0
> If there were such a method, this discussion would not be occurring=20
> --=A0not only on V 2020, but in millions of other places.=A0 There is =
no=20
> argument about the specific gravity and=A0the=A0conductibility of =
copper,=20
> the tensile strength of alloy X2314, or other beliefs that are used to=20=

> send humankind to the moon and broadcast that event in real-time.
> =A0
> The existence of the above=A0problem of knowledge=A0should give =
rational=20
> persons a great deal of pause before asserting with apodictic rigor=20
> the truth of any particular set of superstitious/religious beliefs=20
> such as Christianity, Islam, Judaism, God as Space Traveler, Gods who=20=

> Live in a Volcano, Pan, etc.=A0 The probability of any particular=20
> religious/superstitious system being true appears miniscule.=A0 This=20=

> pause should also limit attempting=A0to control/limit=A0other's lives=20=

> based solely on these superstitious/religious beliefs.=A0 [Other=20
> considerations appear at the end for those that do not get=20
> bored/disgusted before arriving there.]
> =A0
> With regard to ethical statements, a somewhat similar situation=20
> exists.=A0 However, since all of us must act, there are various =
systems=20
> which attempt to provide a practical answers to ethical questions.=A0=20=

> Some of these ethical systems are, in great part, empirically based.=A0=20=

> In these systems, facts are considered and ethical truths are subject=20=

> to testing and to modification based on experience.
> =A0
> Anthropological investigations of many different societies=A0appear=20
> to=A0demonstrate that ethical beliefs generally arise out of practical=20=

> considerations.=A0 These ethical beliefs occur before the=20
> superstitious/religious foundations which eventually are used to=20
> propagandize belief in and to buttress obedience to such ethical=20
> beliefs.
> =A0
> =A0
> Life is a constant, sometimes very difficult struggle.=A0 An =
observably=20
> contingent universe provides many uncertainties and unpleasantries.=A0=20=

> All of us have various means of coping with various parts of this=20
> struggle.=A0 Many of these coping mechanisms involve fantasy.=A0=20
> Psychologists call them defense mechanisms.=A0 Those who have read=20
> modern psychology know there are a great number of these mechanisms=20
> that have been identified, e.g., rationalization, projection, reaction=20=

> formation,=A0 etc.
> =A0
> For example, probably all of us had an imaginary friend and/or=20
> ascribed to/fantasized about the actions/emotions of real=20
> friends.=A0=A0Defense mechanisms allow us to cope with and =
to=A0alleviate in=20
> the short term many unpleasant feelings and to defend our personas=20
> against unpleasant truths.=A0 The use of these coping mechanisms when=20=

> not confused with reality in the long term are normal and generally=20
> healthy.
> =A0
> The problems with the use of defense mechanisms begin to=A0appear when=20=

> the person believes the fantasies driven or engendered by these=20
> defense mechanisms correspond to reality.=A0 When the=20
> fantasies/delusions reach certain levels of unreality, such as=20
> believing in contradictory statements,=A0believing in existential=20
> statements=A0contrary to or not supported by evidence,=A0or, in=20
> particular, believing that a particular person controls the weather=20
> for a region, then such defense mechanisms become pathological=20
> to=A0various degrees.
> =A0
> Many non-believers such as myself do not find all=20
> superstitious/religious beliefs to be "evil."=A0 Such beliefs provide=20=

> solace in times of grief, provide moral guidance for some, provide a=20=

> sense of community/belonging for some, provide comfort from the=20
> vicissitudes of life's struggle, etc.=A0 Although the truth of=20
> such=A0beliefs is highly doubtful, to the extent that=20
> religious/superstitious beliefs provide relative peace, well-being,=20
> individual growth, etc. non- believers are not upset by such matters.
> =A0
> The problem for non-believers and many believers alike arises when=20
> religious/superstitious beliefs are use to proscribe the actions of=20
> others who do not share the particular=A0superstitions of the=20
> proscriber.
> =A0
> In plain terms, many see that solely using superstition/religion and=20=

> ignorance=A0to limit the freedom, aspirations, individual growth=20
> opportunities, non-criminal life styles, etc.=A0of=A0other people is=20=

> little short of colossal egotism and is an logically/epistemologically=20=

> unwarranted intrusion on personal liberty.
> =A0
> Eric and his fellow believes are clearly free to indulge in, use as=20
> coping mechanisms,=A0and to argue for their particular=20
> superstitious/religious beliefs.=A0 If Eric's beliefs provide comfort=20=

> for him, fine.=A0 However, when Eric and his fellow travelers use =
their=20
> particular beliefs to condemn, to attempt to impose guilt upon, and/or=20=

> to outlaw the non-criminal freedom of others, then because there is=20
> little or no logical/epistemological support for Eric's beliefs,=20
> conflict, often acrimonious and sometimes deadly, arises.=A0 If Eric=20=

> were a Christian living in Saudi Arabia, he would understand this=20
> position much more clearly.
> =A0
> When gender based, race based, sexual orientation based, etc. roles=20
> are limited not by a discussion of observable consequences but by=20
> superstition and ignorance, we all lose not only our own freedom of=20
> choice, but the contributions those who are limited can make to our=20
> lives as well as to their own.
> =A0
> If you have had the patience to struggle through the above, thank you.
> =A0
> In closing, here is=A0one general problem of many that arises out of=20=

> certain kinds of religious/superstitious beliefs.
> =A0
> General Observation:=A0 If one expects others to act in a certain =
manner=20
> to achieve certain goals=A0in given situations, then clarity of =
purpose=20
> and procedure is essential.
> =A0
> Specific Instance:=A0 When desiring employees to provide excellent=20
> customer service, for example, a good manager carefully=20
> explains/re-explains to each employee clearly and unequivocally which=20=

> behaviors/attitudes/etc. (and the purposes of such=20
> behaviors/attitudes/etc.) are required to reach the goal of excellent=20=

> customer service.=A0 The clearer, more=A0careful, more detailed=A0the=20=

> instruction, the greater the probability that the employees will=20
> perform correctly.=A0 Moreover, the instructions given about good=20
> customer service are a result of years of experimentation and=20
> observation -- the results of such instructions are verifiable.=A0 =
Newer=20
> experiences can and frequently do modify/expand the instructions.
> =A0
> If there is such a thing as eternal life, and if there is a way to=20
> achieve such, then the importance of such an accomplishment greatly=20
> exceeds the importance of giving good customer service.
> =A0
> If there is some being(s) in charge of deciding who is to be eternally=20=

> rewarded/punished, she/he/it/they appear to be very inept managers.
> =A0
> Given the undeniable reality of the plurality of many different=20
> religions, the difference in their ethical pronouncements, the=20
> differences in their alleged paths to eternity, the amount of death,=20=

> heinous suffering, and displacement the practice of these religions=20
> have historically (and in the present) bestowed upon humankind, etc.,=20=

> it is undeniable that=A0clear, verifiable instructions from some =
alleged=20
> deity(s) to achieve eternal reward are=A0obviously lacking.=A0 (If =
not,=20
> this discussion would not be occurring.)
> =A0
> In reality, all things considered, alleged gods as a guides to eternal=20=

> rewards appear to be=A0colossal bumblers -- certainly less effective=20=

> than the poorest of human managers.
> =A0
> Given the human needs that drive humankind towards the plurality of=20
> religious beliefs, it is of very small probability that the words=20
> above will influence anyone to any degree.=A0 However, I write them =
with=20
> hope that they may encourage a few to examine more closely their=20
> sexist, homophobic, racist, pro-slavery, anti-secular,=20
> anti-egalitarian, anti-innovation, and/or anti-liberty=A0points of =
view.
> =A0
> If you have read this far, thank you.=A0 Perhaps I=A0can treat you to =
a=20
> banana split at the Elk River Dairy Queen.
>
>
> Wayne
> =A0
> Art Deco=A0 (Wayne Fox)
> deco@moscow.com
> =A0
> =A0
> =A0
> =A0
> =A0
> =A0
> =A0
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Tbertruss@aol.com
>
>  To: eric@eric-e.com ; vision2020@moscow.com
>
>  Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 11:09 PM
>
> Subject: [Vision2020] Ted's answer to Eric E.
>
>
>
> Eric:
>
> We can agree to disagree, amicably, but you backpedaled rather=20
> vigorously from wording that did not seem to imply as much "between=20
> the lines" interpretation as you now claim the words required.=A0 If a=20=

> code book is needed to decipher your true meaning, perhaps you could=20=

> post it on the web?
>
> Where the rubber meets the road, Eric, is that I will not deny your=20
> faith may be the absolute truth, yet your faith demands that you=20
> assert my spirituality, not based on Christ's divinity, is absolutely=20=

> false!
>
> Here we diverge in ways not trivial that impact the power vectors of=20=

> spirituality in how we seek to alter the world!
>
> And you can make whatever you wish of that comment, which implies a=20
> tome or two.
>
> Ted Moffett
>
>
>
> The Nuart Theatre
> 208-882-0459 (lobby, no message)
> 208-883-0997 (CCM, leave message)
> 516 S Main, Moscow ID 83843
> eric@eric-e.com
> http://www.ccmbooks.org
>
>
>


The Nuart Theatre
208-882-0459 (lobby, no message)
208-883-0997 (CCM, leave message)
516 S Main, Moscow ID 83843
eric@eric-e.com
http://www.ccmbooks.org



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Wayne,


Again, great thoughts on your part.


I appreciate very much the need to meed the physical needs of the
world's masses, especially since God commands me in the Bible to feed
the hungry, and minister to the poor and sick.=20


I will gladly do these things (at the moment, only with my money), to
the degree that a person needs to be fed and healthy to be able to
understand a presentation of the Gospel, and then to be helped to live
a life pleasing to God.

But humanitarianism as an end to itself, is helping only half of the
man. The Bible says, "What does it profit a man if he gains the world
and loses his soul?" =20


What good does it do for me to feed and clothe a man and leave him so
that he can happily and warmly go spend an eternity without God?  As
Nick said with his Max Planck quote, it is folly to artificially
separate a man's physicality and spirituality.  Any attempts to do so
are only illusions, and are a band-aid on a bullet hole.  That is why
I think wholistic medicine, and preventative health, and Eastern
medicine are on the right track. They respect the whole man.


So, yes, I would love to do a Peace Corps mission. But to ignore the
spirituality of the people I would be helping would be to harm them.=20
My Peace Corps mission would emphasize the most important "Peace", the
peace between God and man.


Far more tragic than a poor person starving to death and going to
spend eternity with God is a healthy, well-clothed person living a
long wasteful life and then going to spend eternity without God.


Best regards,


Eric E.



On May 28, 2004, at 1:16 PM, Art Deco aka W. Fox wrote:


<excerpt><bigger><bigger>Eric, et al,</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>When searching for "the truth" it may be useful to
understand that some statements are neither true nor false.=A0 For
example:</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>"The square root of blue recrystalizes =
sodomy."</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>Just because words can be strung together in an
apparently=A0syntactically correct sentence doesn't meant the sentence
has a comprehensible, literal, testable=A0meaning.</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>In your quest for "the truth" you might watch out
for=A0these kind of=A0assertions.=A0 Religion, philosophy, politics, =
etc.
are rife with such statements.=A0=A0These assertions=A0are generally
recognizable by the practical impossibility of being neither
unequivocally confirmable nor falsifiable.=A0 The latter is often
especially the case.</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>A parable derived from an example written by an
apostate Catholic=A0disciple of Wittgenstein may be helpful as an
illustration to you.=A0</bigger></bigger>

<bigger><bigger> </bigger></bigger>=A0

=A0

<fontfamily><param>Times New Roman</param><bigger><bigger>Neighbors A
& B were having an over-the-back-fence =
discussion:</bigger></bigger></fontfamily>

=A0

<fontfamily><param>Times New Roman</param><bigger><bigger>A:=A0=A0=A0 I
heard you have a new kind of powerful watchdog or =
something.</bigger></bigger></fontfamily>

=A0

<fontfamily><param>Times New Roman</param><bigger><bigger>B:=A0=A0=A0 =
Yes,
it is called the Odg.</bigger></bigger></fontfamily>

=A0

<fontfamily><param>Times New Roman</param><bigger><bigger>A:=A0=A0=A0 =
What
does it do?</bigger></bigger></fontfamily>

=A0

<fontfamily><param>Times New Roman</param><bigger><bigger>B:=A0=A0=A0 It
watches over us continually and protects us and our property from =
harm.</bigger></bigger></fontfamily>

=A0

<fontfamily><param>Times New Roman</param><bigger><bigger>A:=A0=A0=A0 I
haven't seen anything.=A0 Where is it?</bigger></bigger></fontfamily>

=A0

<fontfamily><param>Times New Roman</param><bigger><bigger>B:=A0=A0=A0 =
The
Odg is invisible.</bigger></bigger></fontfamily>

=A0

<fontfamily><param>Times New Roman</param><bigger><bigger>A:=A0=A0=A0 I =
have
heard any barking or anything.</bigger></bigger></fontfamily>

=A0

<fontfamily><param>Times New Roman</param><bigger><bigger>B:=A0=A0=A0 =
The
Odg makes=A0no sound.</bigger></bigger></fontfamily>

=A0

<fontfamily><param>Times New Roman</param><bigger><bigger>A:=A0=A0=A0 =
You
don't have a fence.=A0 How do you keep the Odg =
in?</bigger></bigger></fontfamily>

=A0

<fontfamily><param>Times New Roman</param><bigger><bigger>B:=A0=A0=A0 =
The
Odg stays with us always.=A0 It is the loving nature of the Odg to do =
so.</bigger></bigger></fontfamily>

=A0

<fontfamily><param>Times New Roman</param><bigger><bigger>A:=A0=A0=A0 =
Your
lawn is immaculate.=A0 I don't see any Odg droppings at =
all.</bigger></bigger></fontfamily>

=A0

<fontfamily><param>Times New Roman</param><bigger><bigger>B:=A0=A0=A0 =
The
Odg never eats.=A0 Consequently, it makes no droppings.=A0 It doesn't
slobber or have bad breath either.</bigger></bigger></fontfamily>

=A0

<fontfamily><param>Times New Roman</param><bigger><bigger>A:=A0=A0=A0 =
Tell
me again what it does.</bigger></bigger></fontfamily>

=A0

<fontfamily><param>Times New Roman</param><bigger><bigger>B:=A0=A0=A0 It
watches over us and protects us from all harms.=A0 It requires only
unquestioning belief on our part in =
return.</bigger></bigger></fontfamily>

=A0

<fontfamily><param>Times New Roman</param><bigger><bigger>A:=A0=A0=A0 =
But
wasn't your home robbed of everything of value, weren't you badly
beaten up,=A0and wasn't your wife taken=A0for and enjoyed a month-long
sexual romp by a motorcycle gang a few months =
ago?</bigger></bigger></fontfamily>

=A0

<fontfamily><param>Times New Roman</param><bigger><bigger>B:=A0=A0=A0 =
Yes,
but it must of been good for us, else the Odg would not have let it
happen.</bigger></bigger></fontfamily>

=A0


<bigger><bigger>=A0</bigger></bigger>

<bigger><bigger>Eric, I hope you are a sincere person who wishes to
better the world.=A0</bigger></bigger>

<bigger><bigger> =A0</bigger></bigger>

<bigger><bigger>After understanding the above parable and its
ramifications, perhaps you might consider shifting the focus of your
faith and the use of your talents from proselytization to
working=A0directly, non-judgmentally, and non-theologically to alleviate
some of the obvious sufferings in the world -- hunger, disease,
illiteracy, war, religious strife, crime, social disorganization, =
etc.</bigger></bigger>

<bigger><bigger>=A0</bigger></bigger>

<bigger><bigger>When I lived in Africa as a Peace Corps Volunteer, I
meet a number of missionaries and other once very religious people of
various faiths who came to Africa originally to spread their religious
beliefs.=A0</bigger></bigger>

<bigger><bigger> =A0</bigger></bigger>

<bigger><bigger>The pursuit of the alleviation of suffering and the
physical improvement of=A0the general conditions of=A0life=A0for many of
these people soon became the meaning of and center for their
existence.=A0 Religious beliefs, if not abandoned for many of these
people, became a very less important part of their lives.=A0 Their
faiths, like Albert Schweitzer's were greatly altered.=A0 I know because
I worked with and enjoyed several of these people.=A0 They openly and
unabashedly talked about their spiritual transformation and their
determination to help those less fortunate than themselves in a
multitude of non-spiritual ways.</bigger></bigger>

<bigger><bigger>=A0</bigger></bigger>

<bigger><bigger>Many formerly very religious persons believed that in
the overall scheme of the universe as they came to see it, preventing
glaucoma or teaching=A0Africans to farm=A0productively enriched =
humankind
a great deal more than such self-serving activities like building
churches, making=A0doubtful converts,=A0or singing =
hymns.</bigger></bigger>


<bigger><bigger>Wayne</bigger></bigger>

<bigger><bigger>=A0</bigger></bigger>

<bigger><bigger>Art Deco=A0 (Wayne Fox)</bigger></bigger>

=
<color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param><bigger><bigger>deco@moscow.com</bigge=
r></bigger></color>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller><smaller><x-tad-smaller>-----
Original Message =
-----</x-tad-smaller></smaller></smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller><smaller><x-tad-smaller>
=
</x-tad-smaller><bold><x-tad-smaller>From:</x-tad-smaller></bold><x-tad-sm=
aller>
</x-tad-smaller><color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param><x-tad-smaller>Eric
Engerbretson</x-tad-smaller></color><x-tad-smaller> =
</x-tad-smaller></smaller></smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><excerpt>

=
<bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller><smaller><x-tad-smaller>To:=
</x-tad-smaller></smaller></smaller></fontfamily></bold><fontfamily><param=
>Arial</param><smaller><smaller><x-tad-smaller>
</x-tad-smaller><color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param><x-tad-smaller>Art
Deco aka W. Fox</x-tad-smaller></color><x-tad-smaller> ;
=
</x-tad-smaller><color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param><x-tad-smaller>vision2=
020@moscow.com</x-tad-smaller></color><x-tad-smaller> =
</x-tad-smaller></smaller></smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><excerpt>

=
<bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller><smaller><x-tad-smaller>Sen=
t:</x-tad-smaller></smaller></smaller></fontfamily></bold><fontfamily><par=
am>Arial</param><smaller><smaller><x-tad-smaller>
Friday, May 28, 2004 10:19 =
AM</x-tad-smaller></smaller></smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><excerpt>

=
<bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller><smaller><x-tad-smaller>Sub=
ject:</x-tad-smaller></smaller></smaller></fontfamily></bold><fontfamily><=
param>Arial</param><smaller><smaller><x-tad-smaller>
Re:Re:Re:Re: [Vision2020] Ted's answer to Eric =
E.</x-tad-smaller></smaller></smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><excerpt>


Thanks for taking the time to write such a clear and well-written
bunch o' thoughts, Wayne. Very cogent. And I mean that sincerely.


But, regardless of how well it can be proven that none of us can prove
who is right-- someone still IS closer to the Truth, and I'm going to
keep trying to find out who they are.


Eric E.



On May 28, 2004, at 9:21 AM, Art Deco aka W. Fox wrote:



All,

=A0

At the risk of sounding like a broken record and probably offending
almost everyone again, here are a few comments on the current Eric E.
vs.. other V 2020 posters thread.

=A0

There are tens of thousands of different systemic religious beliefs,
each contradictory to=A0 each of the others.=A0=A0Unless you can present
cogent evidence that a contradiction is not always a false statement,
this means that only one, if any, of these different religious views
is true.=A0 Compounding this problem is the fact that many adherents of
many of these religious beliefs=A0are, like Eric, absolutely convinced
that their way is the only absolutely true way.

=A0

The tens of thousands of systemic religious beliefs is an
understatement.=A0 If we consider the nuances of individual belief, the
are probably billions of different religious beliefs.

=A0

<bold>The problem is that, so far, no method has been found that
provides a clear, acceptable, universal=A0way to decide the truth of
particular statements/assertions referencing alleged=A0supernatural
beings and occurrences.</bold>

=A0

If there were such a method, this discussion would not be occurring
--=A0not only on V 2020, but in millions of other places.=A0 There is no
argument about the specific gravity and=A0the=A0conductibility of =
copper,
the tensile strength of alloy X2314, or other beliefs that are used to
send humankind to the moon and broadcast that event in real-time.

=A0

The existence of the above=A0problem of knowledge=A0should give rational
persons a great deal of pause before asserting with apodictic rigor
the truth of any particular set of superstitious/religious beliefs
such as Christianity, Islam, Judaism, God as Space Traveler, Gods who
Live in a Volcano, Pan, etc.=A0 The probability of any particular
religious/superstitious system being true appears miniscule.=A0 This
pause should also limit attempting=A0to control/limit=A0other's lives
based solely on these superstitious/religious beliefs.=A0 [Other
considerations appear at the end for those that do not get
bored/disgusted before arriving there.]

=A0

With regard to ethical statements, a somewhat similar situation
exists.=A0 However, since all of us must act, there are various systems
which attempt to provide a practical answers to ethical questions.=A0
Some of these ethical systems are, in great part, empirically based.=A0
In these systems, facts are considered and ethical truths are subject
to testing and to modification based on experience.

=A0

Anthropological investigations of many different societies=A0appear
to=A0demonstrate that ethical beliefs generally arise out of practical
considerations.=A0 These ethical beliefs occur before the
superstitious/religious foundations which eventually are used to
propagandize belief in and to buttress obedience to such ethical
beliefs.

=A0

=A0

Life is a constant, sometimes very difficult struggle.=A0 An observably
contingent universe provides many uncertainties and unpleasantries.=A0
All of us have various means of coping with various parts of this
struggle.=A0 Many of these coping mechanisms involve fantasy.=A0
Psychologists call them defense mechanisms.=A0 Those who have read
modern psychology know there are a great number of these mechanisms
that have been identified, e.g., rationalization, projection, reaction
formation,=A0 etc.

=A0

For example, probably all of us had an imaginary friend and/or
ascribed to/fantasized about the actions/emotions of real
friends.=A0=A0Defense mechanisms allow us to cope with and to=A0alleviate =
in
the short term many unpleasant feelings and to defend our personas
against unpleasant truths.=A0 The use of these coping mechanisms when
not confused with reality in the long term are normal and generally
healthy.

=A0

The problems with the use of defense mechanisms begin to=A0appear when
the person believes the fantasies driven or engendered by these
defense mechanisms correspond to reality.=A0 When the
fantasies/delusions reach certain levels of unreality, such as
believing in contradictory statements,=A0believing in existential
statements=A0contrary to or not supported by evidence,=A0or, in
particular, believing that a particular person controls the weather
for a region, then such defense mechanisms become pathological
to=A0various degrees.

=A0

Many non-believers such as myself do not find all
superstitious/religious beliefs to be "evil."=A0 Such beliefs provide
solace in times of grief, provide moral guidance for some, provide a
sense of community/belonging for some, provide comfort from the
vicissitudes of life's struggle, etc.=A0 Although the truth of
such=A0beliefs is highly doubtful, to the extent that
religious/superstitious beliefs provide relative peace, well-being,
individual growth, etc. non- believers are not upset by such matters.

=A0

The problem for non-believers and many believers alike arises when
religious/superstitious beliefs are use to proscribe the actions of
others who do not share the particular=A0superstitions of the =
proscriber.

=A0

In plain terms, many see that solely using superstition/religion and
ignorance=A0to limit the freedom, aspirations, individual growth
opportunities, non-criminal life styles, etc.=A0of=A0other people is
little short of colossal egotism and is an logically/epistemologically
unwarranted intrusion on personal liberty.

=A0

Eric and his fellow believes are clearly free to indulge in, use as
coping mechanisms,=A0and to argue for their particular
superstitious/religious beliefs.=A0 If Eric's beliefs provide comfort
for him, fine.=A0 However, when Eric and his fellow travelers use their
particular beliefs to condemn, to attempt to impose guilt upon, and/or
to outlaw the non-criminal freedom of others, then because there is
little or no logical/epistemological support for Eric's beliefs,
conflict, often acrimonious and sometimes deadly, arises.=A0 If Eric
were a Christian living in Saudi Arabia, he would understand this
position much more clearly.

=A0

When gender based, race based, sexual orientation based, etc. roles
are limited not by a discussion of observable consequences but by
superstition and ignorance, we all lose not only our own freedom of
choice, but the contributions those who are limited can make to our
lives as well as to their own.

=A0

If you have had the patience to struggle through the above, thank you.

=A0

In closing, here is=A0one general problem of many that arises out of
certain kinds of religious/superstitious beliefs.

=A0

General Observation:=A0 If one expects others to act in a certain manner
to achieve certain goals=A0in given situations, then clarity of purpose
and procedure is essential.

=A0

Specific Instance:=A0 When desiring employees to provide excellent
customer service, for example, a good manager carefully
explains/re-explains to each employee clearly and unequivocally which
behaviors/attitudes/etc. (and the purposes of such
behaviors/attitudes/etc.) are required to reach the goal of excellent
customer service.=A0 The clearer, more=A0careful, more detailed=A0the
instruction, the greater the probability that the employees will
perform correctly.=A0 Moreover, the instructions given about good
customer service are a result of years of experimentation and
observation -- the results of such instructions are verifiable.=A0 Newer
experiences can and frequently do modify/expand the instructions.

=A0

If there is such a thing as eternal life, and if there is a way to
achieve such, then the importance of such an accomplishment greatly
exceeds the importance of giving good customer service.

=A0

If there is some being(s) in charge of deciding who is to be eternally
rewarded/punished, she/he/it/they appear to be very inept managers.

=A0

Given the undeniable reality of the plurality of many different
religions, the difference in their ethical pronouncements, the
differences in their alleged paths to eternity, the amount of death,
heinous suffering, and displacement the practice of these religions
have historically (and in the present) bestowed upon humankind, etc.,
it is undeniable that=A0clear, verifiable instructions from some alleged
deity(s) to achieve eternal reward are=A0obviously lacking.=A0 (If not,
this discussion would not be occurring.)

=A0

In reality, all things considered, alleged gods as a guides to eternal
rewards appear to be=A0colossal bumblers -- certainly less effective
than the poorest of human managers.

=A0

Given the human needs that drive humankind towards the plurality of
religious beliefs, it is of very small probability that the words
above will influence anyone to any degree.=A0 However, I write them with
hope that they may encourage a few to examine more closely their
sexist, homophobic, racist, pro-slavery, anti-secular,
anti-egalitarian, anti-innovation, and/or anti-liberty=A0points of view.

=A0

If you have read this far, thank you.=A0 Perhaps I=A0can treat you to a
banana split at the Elk River Dairy Queen.



Wayne

=A0

Art Deco=A0 (Wayne Fox)

deco@moscow.com

=A0

=A0

=A0

=A0

=A0

=A0

=A0

----- Original Message -----


<bold>From:</bold> Tbertruss@aol.com


 <bold>To:</bold> eric@eric-e.com ; vision2020@moscow.com


 <bold>Sent:</bold> Thursday, May 27, 2004 11:09 PM


<bold>Subject:</bold> [Vision2020] Ted's answer to Eric E.




Eric:


We can agree to disagree, amicably, but you backpedaled rather
vigorously from wording that did not seem to imply as much "between
the lines" interpretation as you now claim the words required.=A0 If a
code book is needed to decipher your true meaning, perhaps you could
post it on the web?


Where the rubber meets the road, Eric, is that I will not deny your
faith may be the absolute truth, yet your faith demands that you
assert my spirituality, not based on Christ's divinity, is absolutely
false!


Here we diverge in ways not trivial that impact the power vectors of
spirituality in how we seek to alter the world!


And you can make whatever you wish of that comment, which implies a
tome or two.


Ted Moffett




<bold><italic>The Nuart Theatre</italic></bold>

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<bold><italic>208-883-0997 (CCM, leave message)</italic></bold>

<bold><italic>516 S Main, Moscow ID 83843</italic></bold>

<bold><italic>eric@eric-e.com</italic></bold>

<bold><italic>http://www.ccmbooks.org</italic></bold>




=
</excerpt><bold><italic><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><color><param>8080=
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The Nuart =
Theatre</x-tad-bigger></bigger></color></fontfamily></italic></bold><bold>=
<italic><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><color><param>9999,9999,9999</para=
m>

<smaller><smaller><x-tad-smaller>208-882-0459 (lobby, no message)

208-883-0997 (CCM, leave message)

516 S Main, Moscow ID 83843

eric@eric-e.com

http://www.ccmbooks.org


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