[Vision2020] Ted's answer to Eric E.
Art Deco aka W. Fox
deco@moscow.com
Fri, 28 May 2004 09:21:20 -0700
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All,
At the risk of sounding like a broken record and probably offending almost
everyone again, here are a few comments on the current Eric E. vs.. other V 2020
posters thread.
There are tens of thousands of different systemic religious beliefs, each
contradictory to each of the others. Unless you can present cogent evidence
that a contradiction is not always a false statement, this means that only one,
if any, of these different religious views is true. Compounding this problem is
the fact that many adherents of many of these religious beliefs are, like Eric,
absolutely convinced that their way is the only absolutely true way.
The tens of thousands of systemic religious beliefs is an understatement. If we
consider the nuances of individual belief, the are probably billions of
different religious beliefs.
The problem is that, so far, no method has been found that provides a clear,
acceptable, universal way to decide the truth of particular
statements/assertions referencing alleged supernatural beings and occurrences.
If there were such a method, this discussion would not be occurring -- not only
on V 2020, but in millions of other places. There is no argument about the
specific gravity and the conductibility of copper, the tensile strength of alloy
X2314, or other beliefs that are used to send humankind to the moon and
broadcast that event in real-time.
The existence of the above problem of knowledge should give rational persons a
great deal of pause before asserting with apodictic rigor the truth of any
particular set of superstitious/religious beliefs such as Christianity, Islam,
Judaism, God as Space Traveler, Gods who Live in a Volcano, Pan, etc. The
probability of any particular religious/superstitious system being true appears
miniscule. This pause should also limit attempting to control/limit other's
lives based solely on these superstitious/religious beliefs. [Other
considerations appear at the end for those that do not get bored/disgusted
before arriving there.]
With regard to ethical statements, a somewhat similar situation exists.
However, since all of us must act, there are various systems which attempt to
provide a practical answers to ethical questions. Some of these ethical systems
are, in great part, empirically based. In these systems, facts are considered
and ethical truths are subject to testing and to modification based on
experience.
Anthropological investigations of many different societies appear to demonstrate
that ethical beliefs generally arise out of practical considerations. These
ethical beliefs occur before the superstitious/religious foundations which
eventually are used to propagandize belief in and to buttress obedience to such
ethical beliefs.
Life is a constant, sometimes very difficult struggle. An observably contingent
universe provides many uncertainties and unpleasantries. All of us have various
means of coping with various parts of this struggle. Many of these coping
mechanisms involve fantasy. Psychologists call them defense mechanisms. Those
who have read modern psychology know there are a great number of these
mechanisms that have been identified, e.g., rationalization, projection,
reaction formation, etc.
For example, probably all of us had an imaginary friend and/or ascribed
to/fantasized about the actions/emotions of real friends. Defense mechanisms
allow us to cope with and to alleviate in the short term many unpleasant
feelings and to defend our personas against unpleasant truths. The use of these
coping mechanisms when not confused with reality in the long term are normal and
generally healthy.
The problems with the use of defense mechanisms begin to appear when the person
believes the fantasies driven or engendered by these defense mechanisms
correspond to reality. When the fantasies/delusions reach certain levels of
unreality, such as believing in contradictory statements, believing in
existential statements contrary to or not supported by evidence, or, in
particular, believing that a particular person controls the weather for a
region, then such defense mechanisms become pathological to various degrees.
Many non-believers such as myself do not find all superstitious/religious
beliefs to be "evil." Such beliefs provide solace in times of grief, provide
moral guidance for some, provide a sense of community/belonging for some,
provide comfort from the vicissitudes of life's struggle, etc. Although the
truth of such beliefs is highly doubtful, to the extent that
religious/superstitious beliefs provide relative peace, well-being, individual
growth, etc. non- believers are not upset by such matters.
The problem for non-believers and many believers alike arises when
religious/superstitious beliefs are use to proscribe the actions of others who
do not share the particular superstitions of the proscriber.
In plain terms, many see that solely using superstition/religion and ignorance
to limit the freedom, aspirations, individual growth opportunities, non-criminal
life styles, etc. of other people is little short of colossal egotism and is an
logically/epistemologically unwarranted intrusion on personal liberty.
Eric and his fellow believes are clearly free to indulge in, use as coping
mechanisms, and to argue for their particular superstitious/religious beliefs.
If Eric's beliefs provide comfort for him, fine. However, when Eric and his
fellow travelers use their particular beliefs to condemn, to attempt to impose
guilt upon, and/or to outlaw the non-criminal freedom of others, then because
there is little or no logical/epistemological support for Eric's beliefs,
conflict, often acrimonious and sometimes deadly, arises. If Eric were a
Christian living in Saudi Arabia, he would understand this position much more
clearly.
When gender based, race based, sexual orientation based, etc. roles are limited
not by a discussion of observable consequences but by superstition and
ignorance, we all lose not only our own freedom of choice, but the contributions
those who are limited can make to our lives as well as to their own.
If you have had the patience to struggle through the above, thank you.
In closing, here is one general problem of many that arises out of certain kinds
of religious/superstitious beliefs.
General Observation: If one expects others to act in a certain manner to
achieve certain goals in given situations, then clarity of purpose and procedure
is essential.
Specific Instance: When desiring employees to provide excellent customer
service, for example, a good manager carefully explains/re-explains to each
employee clearly and unequivocally which behaviors/attitudes/etc. (and the
purposes of such behaviors/attitudes/etc.) are required to reach the goal of
excellent customer service. The clearer, more careful, more detailed the
instruction, the greater the probability that the employees will perform
correctly. Moreover, the instructions given about good customer service are a
result of years of experimentation and observation -- the results of such
instructions are verifiable. Newer experiences can and frequently do
modify/expand the instructions.
If there is such a thing as eternal life, and if there is a way to achieve such,
then the importance of such an accomplishment greatly exceeds the importance of
giving good customer service.
If there is some being(s) in charge of deciding who is to be eternally
rewarded/punished, she/he/it/they appear to be very inept managers.
Given the undeniable reality of the plurality of many different religions, the
difference in their ethical pronouncements, the differences in their alleged
paths to eternity, the amount of death, heinous suffering, and displacement the
practice of these religions have historically (and in the present) bestowed upon
humankind, etc., it is undeniable that clear, verifiable instructions from some
alleged deity(s) to achieve eternal reward are obviously lacking. (If not, this
discussion would not be occurring.)
In reality, all things considered, alleged gods as a guides to eternal rewards
appear to be colossal bumblers -- certainly less effective than the poorest of
human managers.
Given the human needs that drive humankind towards the plurality of religious
beliefs, it is of very small probability that the words above will influence
anyone to any degree. However, I write them with hope that they may encourage a
few to examine more closely their sexist, homophobic, racist, pro-slavery,
anti-secular, anti-egalitarian, anti-innovation, and/or anti-liberty points of
view.
If you have read this far, thank you. Perhaps I can treat you to a banana split
at the Elk River Dairy Queen.
Wayne
Art Deco (Wayne Fox)
deco@moscow.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Tbertruss@aol.com
To: eric@eric-e.com ; vision2020@moscow.com
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 11:09 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] Ted's answer to Eric E.
Eric:
We can agree to disagree, amicably, but you backpedaled rather vigorously from
wording that did not seem to imply as much "between the lines" interpretation as
you now claim the words required. If a code book is needed to decipher your
true meaning, perhaps you could post it on the web?
Where the rubber meets the road, Eric, is that I will not deny your faith may
be the absolute truth, yet your faith demands that you assert my spirituality,
not based on Christ's divinity, is absolutely false!
Here we diverge in ways not trivial that impact the power vectors of
spirituality in how we seek to alter the world!
And you can make whatever you wish of that comment, which implies a tome or
two.
Ted Moffett
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<DIV><FONT size=3D4>All,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>At the risk of sounding like a broken record and =
probably=20
offending almost everyone again, here are a few comments on the current =
Eric E.=20
vs.. other V 2020 posters thread.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>There are tens of thousands of different systemic =
religious=20
beliefs, each contradictory to each of the =
others. Unless you=20
can present cogent evidence that a contradiction is not always a false=20
statement, this means that only one, if any, of these different =
religious views=20
is true. Compounding this problem is the fact that many adherents =
of many=20
of these religious beliefs are, like Eric, absolutely convinced =
that their=20
way is the only absolutely true way.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>The tens of thousands of systemic religious beliefs =
is an=20
understatement. If we consider the nuances of individual belief, =
the are=20
probably billions of different religious beliefs.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4><STRONG>The problem is that, so far, no method has =
been found=20
that provides a clear, acceptable, universal way to decide the =
truth of=20
particular statements/assertions referencing alleged supernatural =
beings=20
and occurrences.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>If there were such a method, this discussion would =
not be=20
occurring -- not only on V 2020, but in millions of other =
places. =20
There is no argument about the specific gravity =
and the conductibility=20
of copper, the tensile strength of alloy X2314, or other beliefs that =
are used=20
to send humankind to the moon and broadcast that event in=20
real-time.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>The existence of the above problem of=20
knowledge should give rational persons a great deal of pause before =
asserting with apodictic rigor the truth of any particular set of=20
superstitious/religious beliefs such as Christianity, Islam, Judaism, =
God as=20
Space Traveler, Gods who Live in a Volcano, Pan, etc. The =
probability of=20
any particular religious/superstitious system being true appears=20
miniscule. This pause should also limit attempting to=20
control/limit other's lives based solely on these =
superstitious/religious=20
beliefs. [Other considerations appear at the end for those that do =
not get=20
bored/disgusted before arriving there.]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>With regard to ethical statements, a somewhat =
similar=20
situation exists. However, since all of us must act, there are =
various=20
systems which attempt to provide a practical answers to ethical =
questions. =20
Some of these ethical systems are, in great part, empirically =
based. In=20
these systems, facts are considered and ethical truths are subject to =
testing=20
and to modification based on experience.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Anthropological investigations of many different=20
societies appear to demonstrate that ethical beliefs generally =
arise=20
out of practical considerations. These ethical beliefs occur =
before the=20
superstitious/religious foundations which eventually are used to =
propagandize=20
belief in and to buttress obedience to such ethical =
beliefs.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Life is a constant, sometimes very difficult =
struggle. =20
An observably contingent universe provides many uncertainties and=20
unpleasantries. All of us have various means of coping with =
various parts=20
of this struggle. Many of these coping mechanisms involve =
fantasy. =20
Psychologists call them defense mechanisms. Those who have read =
modern=20
psychology know there are a great number of these mechanisms that have =
been=20
identified, e.g., rationalization, projection, reaction formation, =
etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>For example, probably all of us had an imaginary =
friend and/or=20
ascribed to/fantasized about the actions/emotions of real=20
friends. Defense mechanisms allow us to cope with and=20
to alleviate in the short term many unpleasant feelings and to =
defend our=20
personas against unpleasant truths. The use of these coping =
mechanisms=20
when not confused with reality in the long term are normal and generally =
healthy.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>The problems with the use of defense mechanisms =
begin=20
to appear when the person believes the fantasies driven or =
engendered by=20
these defense mechanisms correspond to reality. When the=20
fantasies/delusions reach certain levels of unreality, such as believing =
in=20
contradictory statements, believing in existential =
statements contrary=20
to or not supported by evidence, or, in particular, believing that =
a=20
particular person controls the weather for a region, then such defense=20
mechanisms become pathological to various degrees.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Many non-believers such as myself do not find all=20
superstitious/religious beliefs to be "evil." Such beliefs provide =
solace=20
in times of grief, provide moral guidance for some, provide a sense of=20
community/belonging for some, provide comfort from the vicissitudes of =
life's=20
struggle, etc. Although the truth of such beliefs is highly =
doubtful,=20
to the extent that religious/superstitious beliefs provide relative =
peace,=20
well-being, individual growth, etc. non- believers are not upset by such =
matters.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>The problem for non-believers and many believers =
alike arises=20
when religious/superstitious beliefs are use to proscribe the actions of =
others=20
who do not share the particular superstitions of the=20
proscriber.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>In plain terms, many see that solely using=20
superstition/religion and ignorance to limit the freedom, =
aspirations,=20
individual growth opportunities, non-criminal life styles,=20
etc. of other people is little short of colossal egotism and =
is an=20
logically/epistemologically unwarranted intrusion on personal=20
liberty.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Eric and his fellow believes are clearly free to =
indulge in,=20
use as coping mechanisms, and to argue for their particular=20
superstitious/religious beliefs. If Eric's beliefs provide comfort =
for=20
him, fine. However, when Eric and his fellow travelers use their=20
particular beliefs to condemn, to attempt to impose guilt upon, and/or =
to outlaw=20
the non-criminal freedom of others, then because there is little or no=20
logical/epistemological support for Eric's beliefs, conflict, often =
acrimonious=20
and sometimes deadly, arises. If Eric were a Christian living in =
Saudi=20
Arabia, he would understand this position much more =
clearly.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>When gender based, race based, sexual orientation =
based, etc.=20
roles are limited not by a discussion of observable consequences but by=20
superstition and ignorance, we all lose not only our own freedom of =
choice, but=20
the contributions those who are limited can make to our lives as well as =
to=20
their own.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>If you have had the patience to struggle through the =
above,=20
thank you.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>In closing, here is one general problem of many =
that=20
arises out of certain kinds of religious/superstitious =
beliefs.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>General Observation: If one expects others to =
act in a=20
certain manner to achieve certain goals in given situations, then =
clarity=20
of purpose and procedure is essential.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Specific Instance: When desiring employees to =
provide=20
excellent customer service, for example, a good manager carefully=20
explains/re-explains to each employee clearly and unequivocally which=20
behaviors/attitudes/etc. (and the purposes of such =
behaviors/attitudes/etc.) are=20
required to reach the goal of excellent customer service. The =
clearer,=20
more careful, more detailed the instruction, the greater the=20
probability that the employees will perform correctly. Moreover, =
the=20
instructions given about good customer service are a result of years of=20
experimentation and observation -- the results of such instructions are=20
verifiable. Newer experiences can and frequently do modify/expand =
the=20
instructions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>If there is such a thing as eternal life, and if =
there is a=20
way to achieve such, then the importance of such an accomplishment =
greatly=20
exceeds the importance of giving good customer service.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>If there is some being(s) in charge of deciding who =
is to be=20
eternally rewarded/punished, she/he/it/they appear to be very inept=20
managers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Given the undeniable reality of the plurality of =
many=20
different religions, the difference in their ethical pronouncements, the =
differences in their alleged paths to eternity, the amount of death, =
heinous=20
suffering, and displacement the practice of these religions have =
historically=20
(and in the present) bestowed upon humankind, etc., it is undeniable=20
that clear, verifiable instructions from some alleged deity(s) to =
achieve=20
eternal reward are obviously lacking. (If not, this =
discussion would=20
not be occurring.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>In reality, all things considered, alleged gods as a =
guides to=20
eternal rewards appear to be colossal bumblers -- certainly less =
effective=20
than the poorest of human managers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Given the human needs that drive humankind towards =
the=20
plurality of religious beliefs, it is of very small probability that the =
words=20
above will influence anyone to any degree. However, I write them =
with hope=20
that they may encourage a few to examine more closely their sexist, =
homophobic,=20
racist, pro-slavery, anti-secular, anti-egalitarian, anti-innovation, =
and/or=20
anti-liberty points of view.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>If you have read this far, thank you. Perhaps =
I can=20
treat you to a banana split at the Elk River Dairy =
Queen.</FONT></DIV><FONT=20
size=3D4>
<DIV><BR>Wayne</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Art Deco (Wayne Fox)<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3DTbertruss@aol.com=20
href=3D"mailto:Tbertruss@aol.com">Tbertruss@aol.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Deric@eric-e.com=20
href=3D"mailto:eric@eric-e.com">eric@eric-e.com</A> ; <A=20
title=3Dvision2020@moscow.com=20
href=3D"mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 27, 2004 =
11:09=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Vision2020] Ted's =
answer to=20
Eric E.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 =
face=3DArial size=3D2=20
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" PTSIZE=3D"10"><BR>Eric:<BR><BR>We can agree to =
disagree,=20
amicably, but you backpedaled rather vigorously from wording that did =
not seem=20
to imply as much "between the lines" interpretation as you now claim =
the words=20
required. If a code book is needed to decipher your true =
meaning,=20
perhaps you could post it on the web?<BR><BR>Where the rubber meets =
the road,=20
Eric, is that I will not deny your faith may be the absolute truth, =
yet your=20
faith demands that you assert my spirituality, not based on Christ's =
divinity,=20
is absolutely false!<BR><BR>Here we diverge in ways not trivial that =
impact=20
the power vectors of spirituality in how we seek to alter the=20
world!<BR><BR>And you can make whatever you wish of that comment, =
which=20
implies a tome or two.<BR><BR>Ted=20
Moffett<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>
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