[Vision2020] Ted's answer to Eric E.

[Eric Engerbretson]

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Thanks for taking the time to write such a clear and well-written bunch=20=

o' thoughts, Wayne. Very cogent. And I mean that sincerely.

But, regardless of how well it can be proven that none of us can prove=20=

who is right--  someone still IS closer to the Truth, and I'm going to=20=

keep trying to find out who they are.

Eric E.


On May 28, 2004, at 9:21 AM, Art Deco aka W. Fox wrote:

> All,
> =A0
> At the risk of sounding like a broken record and probably offending=20
> almost everyone again, here are a few comments on the current Eric E.=20=

> vs.. other V 2020 posters thread.
> =A0
> There are tens of thousands of different systemic religious beliefs,=20=

> each contradictory to=A0 each of the others.=A0=A0Unless you can =
present=20
> cogent evidence that a contradiction is not always a false statement,=20=

> this means that only one, if any, of these different religious views=20=

> is true.=A0 Compounding this problem is the fact that many adherents =
of=20
> many of these religious beliefs=A0are, like Eric, absolutely convinced=20=

> that their way is the only absolutely true way.
> =A0
> The tens of thousands of systemic religious beliefs is an=20
> understatement.=A0 If we consider the nuances of individual belief, =
the=20
> are probably billions of different religious beliefs.
> =A0
> The problem is that, so far, no method has been found that provides a=20=

> clear, acceptable, universal=A0way to decide the truth of particular=20=

> statements/assertions referencing alleged=A0supernatural beings and=20
> occurrences.
> =A0
> If there were such a method, this discussion would not be occurring=20
> --=A0not only on V 2020, but in millions of other places.=A0 There is =
no=20
> argument about the specific gravity and=A0the=A0conductibility of =
copper,=20
> the tensile strength of alloy X2314, or other beliefs that are used to=20=

> send humankind to the moon and broadcast that event in real-time.
> =A0
> The existence of the above=A0problem of knowledge=A0should give =
rational=20
> persons a great deal of pause before asserting with apodictic rigor=20
> the truth of any particular set of superstitious/religious beliefs=20
> such as Christianity, Islam, Judaism, God as Space Traveler, Gods who=20=

> Live in a Volcano, Pan, etc.=A0 The probability of any particular=20
> religious/superstitious system being true appears miniscule.=A0 This=20=

> pause should also limit attempting=A0to control/limit=A0other's lives=20=

> based solely on these superstitious/religious beliefs.=A0 [Other=20
> considerations appear at the end for those that do not get=20
> bored/disgusted before arriving there.]
> =A0
> With regard to ethical statements, a somewhat similar situation=20
> exists.=A0 However, since all of us must act, there are various =
systems=20
> which attempt to provide a practical answers to ethical questions.=A0=20=

> Some of these ethical systems are, in great part, empirically based.=A0=20=

> In these systems, facts are considered and ethical truths are subject=20=

> to testing and to modification based on experience.
> =A0
> Anthropological investigations of many different societies=A0appear=20
> to=A0demonstrate that ethical beliefs generally arise out of practical=20=

> considerations.=A0 These ethical beliefs occur before the=20
> superstitious/religious foundations which eventually are used to=20
> propagandize belief in and to buttress obedience to such ethical=20
> beliefs.
> =A0
> =A0
> Life is a constant, sometimes very difficult struggle.=A0 An =
observably=20
> contingent universe provides many uncertainties and unpleasantries.=A0=20=

> All of us have various means of coping with various parts of this=20
> struggle.=A0 Many of these coping mechanisms involve fantasy.=A0=20
> Psychologists call them defense mechanisms.=A0 Those who have read=20
> modern psychology know there are a great number of these mechanisms=20
> that have been identified, e.g., rationalization, projection, reaction=20=

> formation,=A0 etc.
> =A0
> For example, probably all of us had an imaginary friend and/or=20
> ascribed to/fantasized about the actions/emotions of real=20
> friends.=A0=A0Defense mechanisms allow us to cope with and =
to=A0alleviate in=20
> the short term many unpleasant feelings and to defend our personas=20
> against unpleasant truths.=A0 The use of these coping mechanisms when=20=

> not confused with reality in the long term are normal and generally=20
> healthy.
> =A0
> The problems with the use of defense mechanisms begin to=A0appear when=20=

> the person believes the fantasies driven or engendered by these=20
> defense mechanisms correspond to reality.=A0 When the=20
> fantasies/delusions reach certain levels of unreality, such as=20
> believing in contradictory statements,=A0believing in existential=20
> statements=A0contrary to or not supported by evidence,=A0or, in=20
> particular, believing that a particular person controls the weather=20
> for a region, then such defense mechanisms become pathological=20
> to=A0various degrees.
> =A0
> Many non-believers such as myself do not find all=20
> superstitious/religious beliefs to be "evil."=A0 Such beliefs provide=20=

> solace in times of grief, provide moral guidance for some, provide a=20=

> sense of community/belonging for some, provide comfort from the=20
> vicissitudes of life's struggle, etc.=A0 Although the truth of=20
> such=A0beliefs is highly doubtful, to the extent that=20
> religious/superstitious beliefs provide relative peace, well-being,=20
> individual growth, etc. non- believers are not upset by such matters.
> =A0
> The problem for non-believers and many believers alike arises when=20
> religious/superstitious beliefs are use to proscribe the actions of=20
> others who do not share the particular=A0superstitions of the=20
> proscriber.
> =A0
> In plain terms, many see that solely using superstition/religion and=20=

> ignorance=A0to limit the freedom, aspirations, individual growth=20
> opportunities, non-criminal life styles, etc.=A0of=A0other people is=20=

> little short of colossal egotism and is an logically/epistemologically=20=

> unwarranted intrusion on personal liberty.
> =A0
> Eric and his fellow believes are clearly free to indulge in, use as=20
> coping mechanisms,=A0and to argue for their particular=20
> superstitious/religious beliefs.=A0 If Eric's beliefs provide comfort=20=

> for him, fine.=A0 However, when Eric and his fellow travelers use =
their=20
> particular beliefs to condemn, to attempt to impose guilt upon, and/or=20=

> to outlaw the non-criminal freedom of others, then because there is=20
> little or no logical/epistemological support for Eric's beliefs,=20
> conflict, often acrimonious and sometimes deadly, arises.=A0 If Eric=20=

> were a Christian living in Saudi Arabia, he would understand this=20
> position much more clearly.
> =A0
> When gender based, race based, sexual orientation based, etc. roles=20
> are limited not by a discussion of observable consequences but by=20
> superstition and ignorance, we all lose not only our own freedom of=20
> choice, but the contributions those who are limited can make to our=20
> lives as well as to their own.
> =A0
> If you have had the patience to struggle through the above, thank you.
> =A0
> In closing, here is=A0one general problem of many that arises out of=20=

> certain kinds of religious/superstitious beliefs.
> =A0
> General Observation:=A0 If one expects others to act in a certain =
manner=20
> to achieve certain goals=A0in given situations, then clarity of =
purpose=20
> and procedure is essential.
> =A0
> Specific Instance:=A0 When desiring employees to provide excellent=20
> customer service, for example, a good manager carefully=20
> explains/re-explains to each employee clearly and unequivocally which=20=

> behaviors/attitudes/etc. (and the purposes of such=20
> behaviors/attitudes/etc.) are required to reach the goal of excellent=20=

> customer service.=A0 The clearer, more=A0careful, more detailed=A0the=20=

> instruction, the greater the probability that the employees will=20
> perform correctly.=A0 Moreover, the instructions given about good=20
> customer service are a result of years of experimentation and=20
> observation -- the results of such instructions are verifiable.=A0 =
Newer=20
> experiences can and frequently do modify/expand the instructions.
> =A0
> If there is such a thing as eternal life, and if there is a way to=20
> achieve such, then the importance of such an accomplishment greatly=20
> exceeds the importance of giving good customer service.
> =A0
> If there is some being(s) in charge of deciding who is to be eternally=20=

> rewarded/punished, she/he/it/they appear to be very inept managers.
> =A0
> Given the undeniable reality of the plurality of many different=20
> religions, the difference in their ethical pronouncements, the=20
> differences in their alleged paths to eternity, the amount of death,=20=

> heinous suffering, and displacement the practice of these religions=20
> have historically (and in the present) bestowed upon humankind, etc.,=20=

> it is undeniable that=A0clear, verifiable instructions from some =
alleged=20
> deity(s) to achieve eternal reward are=A0obviously lacking.=A0 (If =
not,=20
> this discussion would not be occurring.)
> =A0
> In reality, all things considered, alleged gods as a guides to eternal=20=

> rewards appear to be=A0colossal bumblers -- certainly less effective=20=

> than the poorest of human managers.
> =A0
> Given the human needs that drive humankind towards the plurality of=20
> religious beliefs, it is of very small probability that the words=20
> above will influence anyone to any degree.=A0 However, I write them =
with=20
> hope that they may encourage a few to examine more closely their=20
> sexist, homophobic, racist, pro-slavery, anti-secular,=20
> anti-egalitarian, anti-innovation, and/or anti-liberty=A0points of =
view.
> =A0
> If you have read this far, thank you.=A0 Perhaps I=A0can treat you to =
a=20
> banana split at the Elk River Dairy Queen.
>
>
> Wayne
> =A0
> Art Deco=A0 (Wayne Fox)
> deco@moscow.com
> =A0
> =A0
> =A0
> =A0
> =A0
> =A0
> =A0
> ----- Original Message -----
>  From: Tbertruss@aol.com
> To: eric@eric-e.com ; vision2020@moscow.com
> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 11:09 PM
> Subject: [Vision2020] Ted's answer to Eric E.
>
>
> Eric:
>
> We can agree to disagree, amicably, but you backpedaled rather=20
> vigorously from wording that did not seem to imply as much "between=20
> the lines" interpretation as you now claim the words required.=A0 If a=20=

> code book is needed to decipher your true meaning, perhaps you could=20=

> post it on the web?
>
> Where the rubber meets the road, Eric, is that I will not deny your=20
> faith may be the absolute truth, yet your faith demands that you=20
> assert my spirituality, not based on Christ's divinity, is absolutely=20=

> false!
>
> Here we diverge in ways not trivial that impact the power vectors of=20=

> spirituality in how we seek to alter the world!
>
> And you can make whatever you wish of that comment, which implies a=20
> tome or two.
>
> Ted Moffett
>


The Nuart Theatre
208-882-0459 (lobby, no message)
208-883-0997 (CCM, leave message)
516 S Main, Moscow ID 83843
eric@eric-e.com
http://www.ccmbooks.org



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	charset=ISO-8859-1

Thanks for taking the time to write such a clear and well-written
bunch o' thoughts, Wayne. Very cogent. And I mean that sincerely.


But, regardless of how well it can be proven that none of us can prove
who is right--  someone still IS closer to the Truth, and I'm going to
keep trying to find out who they are.


Eric E.



On May 28, 2004, at 9:21 AM, Art Deco aka W. Fox wrote:


<excerpt><bigger><bigger>All,</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>At the risk of sounding like a broken record and
probably offending almost everyone again, here are a few comments on
the current Eric E. vs.. other V 2020 posters thread.</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>There are tens of thousands of different systemic
religious beliefs, each contradictory to=A0 each of the others.=A0=A0Unles=
s
you can present cogent evidence that a contradiction is not always a
false statement, this means that only one, if any, of these different
religious views is true.=A0 Compounding this problem is the fact that
many adherents of many of these religious beliefs=A0are, like Eric,
absolutely convinced that their way is the only absolutely true =
way.</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>The tens of thousands of systemic religious beliefs is
an understatement.=A0 If we consider the nuances of individual belief,
the are probably billions of different religious =
beliefs.</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bold><bigger><bigger>The problem is that, so far, no method has been
found that provides a clear, acceptable, universal=A0way to decide the
truth of particular statements/assertions referencing
alleged=A0supernatural beings and occurrences.</bigger></bigger></bold>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>If there were such a method, this discussion would not
be occurring --=A0not only on V 2020, but in millions of other places.=A0
There is no argument about the specific gravity and=A0the=A0conductibility=

of copper, the tensile strength of alloy X2314, or other beliefs that
are used to send humankind to the moon and broadcast that event in
real-time.</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>The existence of the above=A0problem of knowledge=A0should=

give rational persons a great deal of pause before asserting with
apodictic rigor the truth of any particular set of
superstitious/religious beliefs such as Christianity, Islam, Judaism,
God as Space Traveler, Gods who Live in a Volcano, Pan, etc.=A0 The
probability of any particular religious/superstitious system being
true appears miniscule.=A0 This pause should also limit attempting=A0to
control/limit=A0other's lives based solely on these
superstitious/religious beliefs.=A0 [Other considerations appear at the
end for those that do not get bored/disgusted before arriving =
there.]</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>With regard to ethical statements, a somewhat similar
situation exists.=A0 However, since all of us must act, there are
various systems which attempt to provide a practical answers to
ethical questions.=A0 Some of these ethical systems are, in great part,
empirically based.=A0 In these systems, facts are considered and ethical
truths are subject to testing and to modification based on =
experience.</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>Anthropological investigations of many different
societies=A0appear to=A0demonstrate that ethical beliefs generally arise
out of practical considerations.=A0 These ethical beliefs occur before
the superstitious/religious foundations which eventually are used to
propagandize belief in and to buttress obedience to such ethical
beliefs.</bigger></bigger>

=A0

=A0

<bigger><bigger>Life is a constant, sometimes very difficult
struggle.=A0 An observably contingent universe provides many
uncertainties and unpleasantries.=A0 All of us have various means of
coping with various parts of this struggle.=A0 Many of these coping
mechanisms involve fantasy.=A0 Psychologists call them defense
mechanisms.=A0 Those who have read modern psychology know there are a
great number of these mechanisms that have been identified, e.g.,
rationalization, projection, reaction formation,=A0 =
etc.</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>For example, probably all of us had an imaginary
friend and/or ascribed to/fantasized about the actions/emotions of
real friends.=A0=A0Defense mechanisms allow us to cope with and
to=A0alleviate in the short term many unpleasant feelings and to defend
our personas against unpleasant truths.=A0 The use of these coping
mechanisms when not confused with reality in the long term are normal
and generally healthy.</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>The problems with the use of defense mechanisms begin
to=A0appear when the person believes the fantasies driven or engendered
by these defense mechanisms correspond to reality.=A0 When the
fantasies/delusions reach certain levels of unreality, such as
believing in contradictory statements,=A0believing in existential
statements=A0contrary to or not supported by evidence,=A0or, in
particular, believing that a particular person controls the weather
for a region, then such defense mechanisms become pathological
to=A0various degrees.</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>Many non-believers such as myself do not find all
superstitious/religious beliefs to be "evil."=A0 Such beliefs provide
solace in times of grief, provide moral guidance for some, provide a
sense of community/belonging for some, provide comfort from the
vicissitudes of life's struggle, etc.=A0 Although the truth of
such=A0beliefs is highly doubtful, to the extent that
religious/superstitious beliefs provide relative peace, well-being,
individual growth, etc. non- believers are not upset by such =
matters.</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>The problem for non-believers and many believers alike
arises when religious/superstitious beliefs are use to proscribe the
actions of others who do not share the particular=A0superstitions of the
proscriber.</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>In plain terms, many see that solely using
superstition/religion and ignorance=A0to limit the freedom, aspirations,
individual growth opportunities, non-criminal life styles,
etc.=A0of=A0other people is little short of colossal egotism and is an
logically/epistemologically unwarranted intrusion on personal =
liberty.</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>Eric and his fellow believes are clearly free to
indulge in, use as coping mechanisms,=A0and to argue for their
particular superstitious/religious beliefs.=A0 If Eric's beliefs provide
comfort for him, fine.=A0 However, when Eric and his fellow travelers
use their particular beliefs to condemn, to attempt to impose guilt
upon, and/or to outlaw the non-criminal freedom of others, then
because there is little or no logical/epistemological support for
Eric's beliefs, conflict, often acrimonious and sometimes deadly,
arises.=A0 If Eric were a Christian living in Saudi Arabia, he would
understand this position much more clearly.</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>When gender based, race based, sexual orientation
based, etc. roles are limited not by a discussion of observable
consequences but by superstition and ignorance, we all lose not only
our own freedom of choice, but the contributions those who are limited
can make to our lives as well as to their own.</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>If you have had the patience to struggle through the
above, thank you.</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>In closing, here is=A0one general problem of many that
arises out of certain kinds of religious/superstitious =
beliefs.</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>General Observation:=A0 If one expects others to act in
a certain manner to achieve certain goals=A0in given situations, then
clarity of purpose and procedure is essential.</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>Specific Instance:=A0 When desiring employees to provide
excellent customer service, for example, a good manager carefully
explains/re-explains to each employee clearly and unequivocally which
behaviors/attitudes/etc. (and the purposes of such
behaviors/attitudes/etc.) are required to reach the goal of excellent
customer service.=A0 The clearer, more=A0careful, more detailed=A0the
instruction, the greater the probability that the employees will
perform correctly.=A0 Moreover, the instructions given about good
customer service are a result of years of experimentation and
observation -- the results of such instructions are verifiable.=A0 Newer
experiences can and frequently do modify/expand the =
instructions.</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>If there is such a thing as eternal life, and if there
is a way to achieve such, then the importance of such an
accomplishment greatly exceeds the importance of giving good customer
service.</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>If there is some being(s) in charge of deciding who is
to be eternally rewarded/punished, she/he/it/they appear to be very
inept managers.</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>Given the undeniable reality of the plurality of many
different religions, the difference in their ethical pronouncements,
the differences in their alleged paths to eternity, the amount of
death, heinous suffering, and displacement the practice of these
religions have historically (and in the present) bestowed upon
humankind, etc., it is undeniable that=A0clear, verifiable instructions
from some alleged deity(s) to achieve eternal reward are=A0obviously
lacking.=A0 (If not, this discussion would not be =
occurring.)</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>In reality, all things considered, alleged gods as a
guides to eternal rewards appear to be=A0colossal bumblers -- certainly
less effective than the poorest of human managers.</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>Given the human needs that drive humankind towards the
plurality of religious beliefs, it is of very small probability that
the words above will influence anyone to any degree.=A0 However, I write
them with hope that they may encourage a few to examine more closely
their sexist, homophobic, racist, pro-slavery, anti-secular,
anti-egalitarian, anti-innovation, and/or anti-liberty=A0points of =
view.</bigger></bigger>

=A0

<bigger><bigger>If you have read this far, thank you.=A0 Perhaps I=A0can
treat you to a banana split at the Elk River Dairy =
Queen.</bigger></bigger>



<bigger><bigger>Wayne</bigger></bigger>

<bigger><bigger>=A0</bigger></bigger>

<bigger><bigger>Art Deco=A0 (Wayne Fox)</bigger></bigger>

=
<color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param><bigger><bigger>deco@moscow.com</bigge=
r></bigger></color>

=A0

=A0

=A0

=A0

=A0

=A0

=A0

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller><smaller><x-tad-smaller>-----
Original Message =
-----</x-tad-smaller></smaller></smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller><smaller><x-tad-smaller>
=
</x-tad-smaller><bold><x-tad-smaller>From:</x-tad-smaller></bold><x-tad-sm=
aller>
=
</x-tad-smaller><color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param><x-tad-smaller>Tbertru=
ss@aol.com</x-tad-smaller></color><x-tad-smaller> =
</x-tad-smaller></smaller></smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><excerpt>

=
<bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller><smaller><x-tad-smaller>To:=
</x-tad-smaller></smaller></smaller></fontfamily></bold><fontfamily><param=
>Arial</param><smaller><smaller><x-tad-smaller>
=
</x-tad-smaller><color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param><x-tad-smaller>eric@er=
ic-e.com</x-tad-smaller></color><x-tad-smaller>
; =
</x-tad-smaller><color><param>0000,0000,EEEE</param><x-tad-smaller>vision2=
020@moscow.com</x-tad-smaller></color><x-tad-smaller> =
</x-tad-smaller></smaller></smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><excerpt>

=
<bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller><smaller><x-tad-smaller>Sen=
t:</x-tad-smaller></smaller></smaller></fontfamily></bold><fontfamily><par=
am>Arial</param><smaller><smaller><x-tad-smaller>
Thursday, May 27, 2004 11:09 =
PM</x-tad-smaller></smaller></smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><excerpt>

=
<bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller><smaller><x-tad-smaller>Sub=
ject:</x-tad-smaller></smaller></smaller></fontfamily></bold><fontfamily><=
param>Arial</param><smaller><smaller><x-tad-smaller>
[Vision2020] Ted's answer to Eric =
E.</x-tad-smaller></smaller></smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><excerpt>



<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>Eric:</smaller></fontfamily>


<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>We can agree to disagree,
amicably, but you backpedaled rather vigorously from wording that did
not seem to imply as much "between the lines" interpretation as you
now claim the words required.=A0 If a code book is needed to decipher
your true meaning, perhaps you could post it on the =
web?</smaller></fontfamily>


<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>Where the rubber meets the
road, Eric, is that I will not deny your faith may be the absolute
truth, yet your faith demands that you assert my spirituality, not
based on Christ's divinity, is absolutely false!</smaller></fontfamily>


<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>Here we diverge in ways not
trivial that impact the power vectors of spirituality in how we seek
to alter the world!</smaller></fontfamily>


<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>And you can make whatever you
wish of that comment, which implies a tome or =
two.</smaller></fontfamily>


<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>Ted =
Moffett</smaller></fontfamily>


=
</excerpt><bold><italic><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><color><param>8080=
,0000,0000</param><bigger><x-tad-bigger>


The Nuart =
Theatre</x-tad-bigger></bigger></color></fontfamily></italic></bold><bold>=
<italic><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><color><param>9999,9999,9999</para=
m>

<smaller><smaller><x-tad-smaller>208-882-0459 (lobby, no message)

208-883-0997 (CCM, leave message)

516 S Main, Moscow ID 83843

eric@eric-e.com

http://www.ccmbooks.org


=
</x-tad-smaller></smaller></smaller></color></fontfamily></italic></bold>


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