[Vision2020] Pat's Refusal......an observation about Wayne's response.
Art Deco aka W. Fox
deco@moscow.com
Sat, 24 Apr 2004 13:42:31 -0700
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MessageDavid, et al,
To research something that happened in the 70's prior news data, etc. going on
the internet is much more time consuming than to research information that goes
on the internet as a matter of course today.
A quick (less than one second) cost/benefit analysis should answer your question
about why I did not invest time to research an item merely to gain your
approbation. Carefully read the last sentence of your cite from my post about
Pat, then draw the obvious conclusion about my prior reluctance.
You assert, "The point is you refused (for whatever reason) to answer a direct
request for data supporting your assertion, and yet this didn't bother you at
all."
If you review the posts and later related posts carefully, you will see that
your assertion is not true. While, I did not present the original news articles
(see remarks above), evidence was presented -- you even cited some below.
Remember, part of the original issue was about the motivation of companies. I
remember issuing some evidence (like the ownership of oil companies, examples,
etc.) to counter your assertions that companies always invest where they see a
probable profit.
Wayne
Art Deco (Wayne Fox)
deco@moscow.com
----- Original Message -----
From: David Douglas
To: 'Art Deco aka W. Fox' ; 'Vision 2020'
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 12:50 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Pat's Refusal......an observation about Wayne's
response.
Wayne,
Your last post is an interesting answer to Pat's response, (or non-response,
if you please), given a previous exchange you were part of. A few weeks ago I
asked for some support to your assertion that solar technology was bought up by
oil companies to be put on the shelf. You were sure it had happened, but didn't
want to take the time to find the specifics. Here is one of your responses:
This occurred in the early 70's when I lived in southern California and was
tangentially involved in alternate energy sources at various land use planning
conferences. Perhaps a search of the LA Times might answer your questions. As I
recall, questions were asked several times during the 70's about the
disappearance of these technologies.
I have neither the time nor the inclination to pursue this information.
Maybe Mr. Force can find some sources if he chooses.
Other responses included an example of the butter lobby forcing the margarine
producers not to color their product, and a description of the context of the
times (this being the first paragraph):
The solar example you are suspicious of and the reason for your suspicion
may be that you did not fully understand the historical context, particularly in
the 1970's U.S. and particularly southern California. Two large Arab oil
withholding actions created gasoline shortages that then were fueled by panic
that created lines at gasoline stations that were sometimes over a mile long.
This occurred twice with each shortage lasting several months. I am sure you
can imagine the impact on people's lives in a nation that was/is so highly
dependent on automobile transportation.
(Actually, while not as old as I infer that you are, I was old enough at the
time to have a driver's license and to join the rest of the crowd in line).
At that point it wasn't worth the bother to me. You weren't going to
provide specifics, and you were going to maintain for that your original point
(or perhaps some other similar point) was valid. I didn't pursue it further.
In this context, your exhortation to patience and kindness seems rather ironic:
But perhaps we should be more kind and patient. Some people, because their
background, because of the quality of their education, and/or because of their
religious beliefs, do not understand the necessity or desirability of citing
verifiable evidence to make their assertions probable.
Or are just certain follow-up questions "legitimate"? Or maybe both you and
Pat (and anyone else) are free on this forum to answer or not answer direct ques
tions without being guilty of your sweeping generalizations and letting other's
opinions fall where they may.
David Douglas
-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On
Behalf Of Art Deco aka W. Fox
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 3:02 PM
To: Vision 2020
Subject: [Vision2020] Pat's Refusal
Sunil writes:
"I must ask, 'From what?' Certainly not the blinding clarity of your
answers, since those are as difficult to locate as Iraqi WMDs."
This clever construction makes my day! Perhaps, it belongs in the new
editions of those famous quotation references. Thank you, Sunil!
However, I will not go on a hunger strike while Ms. Kraut decides whether to
answer your original legitimate question.
But perhaps we should be more kind and patient. Some people, because their
background, because of the quality of their education, and/or because of their
religious beliefs, do not understand the necessity or desirability of citing
verifiable evidence to make their assertions probable.
Let's give Pat another chance: Pat, when you say "X is true.", you might
consider saying "X is true because Y, Z, ..." When that happens, you provoke
thought and possibly responses, etc.
Trying to avoid being jagulating,
Wayne
Art Deco (Wayne Fox)
deco@moscow.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Sunil Ramalingam
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 5:55 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] Pat's refusal
Pat,
On April 6, 2004, you wrote in response to someone's post
"As to the war being about oil and revenge for daddy. This shows such a
complete ignorance about oil in the world and who Bush is that it isn't even
worthy of a site where people claim to be learned."
Clearly you have taken a position that the war is not about oil or revenge
for the senior Bush. And I have been asking you ever since to explain what the
war is about. Your recent response is that the information is available to me.
Where?
If you've posted your rationale to V2020, I've missed it; please tell me
what date you posted, and I'll look it up. If you posted elsewhere, give me a
site or a web address, and I'll look that up.
If you are going to challenge the views of others, then I expect you to
defend your position. If you don't wish to do so, why are you challenging other
people? You have claimed that someone else shows complete ignorance. Well, go
ahead and explain how that person is completely wrong, and offer your
explanation for why we are there.
I find your refusal to answer strange. I don't understand it, but here's a
proposal: If you don't intend to defend your positions, don't take any. If you
do take positions, expect to be called on to defend them.
Finally, you ask Tom Hansen if he's protecting me. I must ask, 'From
what?' Certainly not the blinding clarity of your answers, since those are as
difficult to locate as Iraqi WMDs. If reading your answers is like staring at a
solar eclipse, my eyes are safe.
Sunil
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<DIV><FONT size=3D4>David, et al,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>To research something that happened in the 70's =
prior news=20
data, etc. going on the internet is much more time consuming than to =
research=20
information that goes on the internet as a matter of course today. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>A quick (less than one second) cost/benefit analysis =
should=20
answer your question about why I did not invest time to research an =
item=20
merely to gain your approbation. Carefully read the last sentence =
of your=20
cite from my post about Pat, then draw the obvious conclusion about my =
prior=20
reluctance.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004>You assert, "The =
point is you=20
refused (for whatever reason) to answer a direct request for data =
supporting=20
your assertion, and yet this didn't bother you at all." =20
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4><SPAN =
class=3D429530919-24042004></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004>If you review the =
posts and=20
later related posts carefully, you will see that your assertion is not=20
true. While, I did not present the original news articles (see =
remarks=20
above), evidence was presented -- you even cited some below. =
Remember,=20
part of the original issue was about the motivation of =
companies. I=20
remember issuing some evidence (like the ownership of oil =
companies,=20
examples, etc.) to counter your assertions that companies always =
invest=20
where they see a probable profit.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004></SPAN></FONT><FONT =
size=3D4><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004><BR>Wayne</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Art Deco (Wayne Fox)<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR></SPAN></FONT></DI=
V>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4><SPAN =
class=3D429530919-24042004></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4><SPAN =
class=3D429530919-24042004></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4><SPAN =
class=3D429530919-24042004></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dddouglas@pacsim.com =
href=3D"mailto:ddouglas@pacsim.com">David=20
Douglas</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Ddeco@moscow.com=20
href=3D"mailto:deco@moscow.com">'Art Deco aka W. Fox'</A> ; <A=20
title=3Dvision2020@moscow.com =
href=3D"mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">'Vision=20
2020'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, April 24, 2004 =
12:50=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Vision2020] Pat's =
Refusal......an observation about Wayne's response.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004>Wayne,</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004>Your last post is an interesting =
answer to=20
Pat's response, (or non-response, if you please), given a previous =
exchange=20
you were part of. </SPAN><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004>A few =
weeks ago=20
I asked for some support to your assertion that solar technology was =
bought up=20
by oil companies to be put on the shelf. You were sure it had =
happened,=20
but didn't want to take the time to find the specifics. Here is =
one of=20
your responses:</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<P>This occurred in the early 70's when I lived in southern =
California and=20
was tangentially involved in alternate energy sources at various =
land use=20
planning conferences. Perhaps a search of the LA Times might answer =
your=20
questions. As I recall, questions were asked several times during =
the 70's=20
about the disappearance of these technologies.</P>
<P>I have neither the time nor the inclination to pursue this =
information.=20
Maybe Mr. Force can find some sources if he chooses.</P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT> </P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004>Other responses included =
an example=20
of the butter lobby forcing the margarine producers not to color their =
product, and a description of the context of the times (this being the =
first=20
paragraph):</SPAN></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004>The solar example you =
are=20
suspicious of and the reason for your suspicion may be that you did =
not=20
fully understand the historical context, particularly in the 1970's =
U.S. and=20
particularly southern California. Two large Arab oil =
withholding=20
actions created gasoline shortages that then were fueled by panic =
that=20
created lines at gasoline stations that were sometimes over a mile=20
long. This occurred twice with each shortage lasting several=20
months. I am sure you can imagine the impact on people's lives =
in=20
a nation that was/is so highly dependent on automobile=20
transportation.</SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004>(Actually, while not as =
old as I=20
infer that you are, I was old enough at the time to have a driver's =
license=20
and to join the rest of the crowd in line). </SPAN></P>
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004> At that point it =
wasn't worth=20
the bother to me. You weren't going to provide specifics, and =
you were=20
going to maintain for that your original point (or perhaps some other =
similar=20
point) was valid. I didn't pursue it=20
further. </SPAN><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004>In this =
context,=20
your exhortation to patience and kindness seems rather ironic: =20
</SPAN></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004>But perhaps we should =
be more kind=20
and patient. Some people, because their background, because of =
the=20
quality of their education, and/or because of their religious =
beliefs,=20
do not understand the necessity or desirability of citing verifiable =
evidence to make their assertions =
probable.</SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004>Or are just certain=20
follow-up questions "legitimate"? Or maybe both you and Pat =
(and=20
anyone else) are free on this forum to answer or not answer =
direct=20
questions without being guilty of your sweeping generalizations and =
letting=20
other's opinions fall where they may. </SPAN></P>
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004><FONT=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004>David Douglas</SPAN></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] =
<B>On=20
Behalf Of </B>Art Deco aka W. Fox<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, April =
24, 2004=20
3:02 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Vision 2020<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Vision2020] =
Pat's=20
Refusal<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Sunil writes:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>"</FONT><FONT size=3D3>I must ask, 'From what?' =
Certainly=20
not the blinding clarity of your answers, since those are as =
difficult to=20
locate as Iraqi WMDs.</FONT><FONT size=3D4>"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>This clever construction makes my day! =
Perhaps, it=20
belongs in the new editions of those famous quotation =
references. =20
Thank you, Sunil!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>However, I will not go on a hunger strike while =
Ms. Kraut=20
decides whether to answer your original legitimate =
question.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>But perhaps we should be more kind and =
patient. Some=20
people, because their background, because of the quality of their =
education,=20
and/or because of their religious beliefs, do not understand =
the=20
necessity or desirability of citing verifiable evidence to =
make their=20
assertions probable.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Let's give Pat another chance: Pat, when =
you say "X=20
is true.", you might consider saying "X is true because Y, Z, =
..." =20
When that happens, you provoke thought and possibly responses,=20
etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Trying to avoid being =
jagulating,</FONT></DIV><FONT=20
size=3D4>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR>Wayne</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Art Deco (Wayne Fox)<BR><A =
href=3D"mailto:deco@moscow.com"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>deco@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dsunilramalingam@hotmail.com=20
href=3D"mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com"><FONT =
color=3D#000000>Sunil=20
Ramalingam</FONT></A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvision2020@moscow.com=20
href=3D"mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 23, =
2004 5:55=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Vision2020] Pat's =
refusal</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P>Pat,</P>
<P>On April 6, 2004, you wrote in response to someone's post</P>
<P>"As to the war being about oil and revenge for daddy. This =
shows such a=20
complete ignorance about oil in the world and who Bush is that it =
isn't=20
even worthy of a site where people claim to be learned."</P>
<P>Clearly you have taken a position that the war is not about oil =
or=20
revenge for the senior Bush. And I have been asking you ever since =
to=20
explain what the war is about. Your recent response is that the=20
information is available to me.</P>
<P> Where? </P>
<P>If you=92ve posted your rationale to V2020, I=92ve missed it; =
please tell=20
me what date you posted, and I=92ll look it up. If you posted =
elsewhere,=20
give me a site or a web address, and I=92ll look that up. </P>
<P>If you are going to challenge the views of others, then I =
expect you to=20
defend your position. If you don=92t wish to do so, why are you =
challenging=20
other people? You have claimed that someone else shows complete =
ignorance.=20
Well, go ahead and explain how that person is completely wrong, =
and offer=20
your explanation for why we are there. </P>
<P>I find your refusal to answer strange. I don=92t understand it, =
but=20
here=92s a proposal: If you don=92t intend to defend your =
positions, don=92t=20
take any. If you do take positions, expect to be called on to =
defend them.=20
</P>
<P>Finally, you ask Tom Hansen if he's protecting me. I must =
ask,=20
'From what?' Certainly not the blinding clarity of your answers, =
since=20
those are as difficult to locate as Iraqi WMDs. If =
reading your=20
answers is like staring at a solar eclipse, my eyes are safe.</P>
=
<P>Sunil</P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></B=
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