[Vision2020] Pat's Refusal......an observation about Wayne's response.
David Douglas
ddouglas@pacsim.com
Sat, 24 Apr 2004 15:50:39 -0400
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Wayne,
Your last post is an interesting answer to Pat's response, (or
non-response, if you please), given a previous exchange you were part
of. A few weeks ago I asked for some support to your assertion that
solar technology was bought up by oil companies to be put on the shelf.
You were sure it had happened, but didn't want to take the time to find
the specifics. Here is one of your responses:
This occurred in the early 70's when I lived in southern California and
was tangentially involved in alternate energy sources at various land
use planning conferences. Perhaps a search of the LA Times might answer
your questions. As I recall, questions were asked several times during
the 70's about the disappearance of these technologies.
I have neither the time nor the inclination to pursue this information.
Maybe Mr. Force can find some sources if he chooses.
Other responses included an example of the butter lobby forcing the
margarine producers not to color their product, and a description of the
context of the times (this being the first paragraph):
The solar example you are suspicious of and the reason for your
suspicion may be that you did not fully understand the historical
context, particularly in the 1970's U.S. and particularly southern
California. Two large Arab oil withholding actions created gasoline
shortages that then were fueled by panic that created lines at gasoline
stations that were sometimes over a mile long. This occurred twice with
each shortage lasting several months. I am sure you can imagine the
impact on people's lives in a nation that was/is so highly dependent on
automobile transportation.
(Actually, while not as old as I infer that you are, I was old enough at
the time to have a driver's license and to join the rest of the crowd in
line).
The point is you refused (for whatever reason) to answer a direct
request for data supporting your assertion, and yet this didn't bother
you at all. At that point it wasn't worth the bother to me. You
weren't going to provide specifics, and you were going to maintain for
that your original point (or perhaps some other similar point) was
valid. I didn't pursue it further. In this context, your exhortation
to patience and kindness seems rather ironic:
But perhaps we should be more kind and patient. Some people, because
their background, because of the quality of their education, and/or
because of their religious beliefs, do not understand the necessity or
desirability of citing verifiable evidence to make their assertions
probable.
Or are just certain follow-up questions "legitimate"? Or maybe both you
and Pat (and anyone else) are free on this forum to answer or not answer
direct questions without being guilty of your sweeping generalizations
and letting other's opinions fall where they may.
David Douglas
-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]
On Behalf Of Art Deco aka W. Fox
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 3:02 PM
To: Vision 2020
Subject: [Vision2020] Pat's Refusal
Sunil writes:
"I must ask, 'From what?' Certainly not the blinding clarity of your
answers, since those are as difficult to locate as Iraqi WMDs."
This clever construction makes my day! Perhaps, it belongs in the new
editions of those famous quotation references. Thank you, Sunil!
However, I will not go on a hunger strike while Ms. Kraut decides
whether to answer your original legitimate question.
But perhaps we should be more kind and patient. Some people, because
their background, because of the quality of their education, and/or
because of their religious beliefs, do not understand the necessity or
desirability of citing verifiable evidence to make their assertions
probable.
Let's give Pat another chance: Pat, when you say "X is true.", you
might consider saying "X is true because Y, Z, ..." When that happens,
you provoke thought and possibly responses, etc.
Trying to avoid being jagulating,
Wayne
Art Deco (Wayne Fox)
<mailto:deco@moscow.com> deco@moscow.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com> Sunil Ramalingam
To: <mailto:vision2020@moscow.com> vision2020@moscow.com
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 5:55 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] Pat's refusal
Pat,
On April 6, 2004, you wrote in response to someone's post
"As to the war being about oil and revenge for daddy. This shows such a
complete ignorance about oil in the world and who Bush is that it isn't
even worthy of a site where people claim to be learned."
Clearly you have taken a position that the war is not about oil or
revenge for the senior Bush. And I have been asking you ever since to
explain what the war is about. Your recent response is that the
information is available to me.
Where?
If you've posted your rationale to V2020, I've missed it; please tell me
what date you posted, and I'll look it up. If you posted elsewhere, give
me a site or a web address, and I'll look that up.
If you are going to challenge the views of others, then I expect you to
defend your position. If you don't wish to do so, why are you
challenging other people? You have claimed that someone else shows
complete ignorance. Well, go ahead and explain how that person is
completely wrong, and offer your explanation for why we are there.
I find your refusal to answer strange. I don't understand it, but here's
a proposal: If you don't intend to defend your positions, don't take
any. If you do take positions, expect to be called on to defend them.
Finally, you ask Tom Hansen if he's protecting me. I must ask, 'From
what?' Certainly not the blinding clarity of your answers, since those
are as difficult to locate as Iraqi WMDs. If reading your answers is
like staring at a solar eclipse, my eyes are safe.
Sunil
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<DIV><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004>Wayne,</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004>Your last post is an interesting =
answer to=20
Pat's response, (or non-response, if you please), given a previous =
exchange you=20
were part of. </SPAN><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004>A few weeks =
ago I=20
asked for some support to your assertion that solar technology was =
bought up by=20
oil companies to be put on the shelf. You were sure it had =
happened, but=20
didn't want to take the time to find the specifics. Here is one of =
your=20
responses:</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<P>This occurred in the early 70's when I lived in southern California =
and was=20
tangentially involved in alternate energy sources at various land use =
planning=20
conferences. Perhaps a search of the LA Times might answer your =
questions. As=20
I recall, questions were asked several times during the 70's about the =
disappearance of these technologies.</P>
<P>I have neither the time nor the inclination to pursue this =
information.=20
Maybe Mr. Force can find some sources if he chooses.</P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT> </P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004>Other responses included =
an example of=20
the butter lobby forcing the margarine producers not to color their =
product, and=20
a description of the context of the times (this being the first=20
paragraph):</SPAN></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004>The solar example you =
are suspicious=20
of and the reason for your suspicion may be that you did not fully =
understand=20
the historical context, particularly in the 1970's U.S. and =
particularly=20
southern California. Two large Arab oil withholding actions =
created=20
gasoline shortages that then were fueled by panic that created lines =
at=20
gasoline stations that were sometimes over a mile long. This =
occurred=20
twice with each shortage lasting several months. I am sure you =
can=20
imagine the impact on people's lives in a nation that was/is so =
highly=20
dependent on automobile transportation.</SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004>(Actually, while not as =
old as I infer=20
that you are, I was old enough at the time to have a driver's license =
and to=20
join the rest of the crowd in line). </SPAN></P>
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004>The point is you refused =
(for whatever=20
reason) to answer a direct request for data supporting your assertion, =
and yet=20
this didn't bother you at all. At that point it wasn't worth the =
bother to=20
me. You weren't going to provide specifics, and you were going to =
maintain=20
for that your original point (or perhaps some other similar =
point) was=20
valid. I didn't pursue it further. </SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D429530919-24042004>In this context, your exhortation to patience =
and=20
kindness seems rather ironic: </SPAN></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004>But perhaps we should be =
more kind=20
and patient. Some people, because their background, because of =
the=20
quality of their education, and/or because of their religious =
beliefs, do=20
not understand the necessity or desirability of citing verifiable =
evidence to=20
make their assertions probable.</SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004>Or are just certain=20
follow-up questions "legitimate"? Or maybe both you and Pat =
(and=20
anyone else) are free on this forum to answer or not answer direct=20
questions without being guilty of your sweeping generalizations and =
letting=20
other's opinions fall where they may. </SPAN></P>
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D429530919-24042004>David Douglas</SPAN></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] <B>On =
Behalf=20
Of </B>Art Deco aka W. Fox<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, April 24, 2004 =
3:02=20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Vision 2020<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Vision2020] Pat's=20
Refusal<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Sunil writes:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>"</FONT><FONT size=3D3>I must ask, 'From what?' =
Certainly not=20
the blinding clarity of your answers, since those are as difficult to =
locate=20
as Iraqi WMDs.</FONT><FONT size=3D4>"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>This clever construction makes my day! =
Perhaps, it=20
belongs in the new editions of those famous quotation =
references. Thank=20
you, Sunil!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>However, I will not go on a hunger strike while =
Ms. Kraut=20
decides whether to answer your original legitimate =
question.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>But perhaps we should be more kind and =
patient. Some=20
people, because their background, because of the quality of their =
education,=20
and/or because of their religious beliefs, do not understand the=20
necessity or desirability of citing verifiable evidence to =
make their=20
assertions probable.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Let's give Pat another chance: Pat, when you =
say "X is=20
true.", you might consider saying "X is true because Y, Z, ..." =
When=20
that happens, you provoke thought and possibly responses, =
etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Trying to avoid being =
jagulating,</FONT></DIV><FONT size=3D4>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR>Wayne</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Art Deco (Wayne Fox)<BR><A =
href=3D"mailto:deco@moscow.com"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>deco@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dsunilramalingam@hotmail.com=20
href=3D"mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com"><FONT =
color=3D#000000>Sunil=20
Ramalingam</FONT></A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvision2020@moscow.com=20
href=3D"mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 23, 2004 =
5:55=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Vision2020] Pat's=20
refusal</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P>Pat,</P>
<P>On April 6, 2004, you wrote in response to someone's post</P>
<P>"As to the war being about oil and revenge for daddy. This shows =
such a=20
complete ignorance about oil in the world and who Bush is that it =
isn't even=20
worthy of a site where people claim to be learned."</P>
<P>Clearly you have taken a position that the war is not about oil =
or=20
revenge for the senior Bush. And I have been asking you ever since =
to=20
explain what the war is about. Your recent response is that the =
information=20
is available to me.</P>
<P> Where? </P>
<P>If you’ve posted your rationale to V2020, I’ve missed =
it; please tell me=20
what date you posted, and I’ll look it up. If you posted =
elsewhere, give me=20
a site or a web address, and I’ll look that up. </P>
<P>If you are going to challenge the views of others, then I expect =
you to=20
defend your position. If you don’t wish to do so, why are you =
challenging=20
other people? You have claimed that someone else shows complete =
ignorance.=20
Well, go ahead and explain how that person is completely wrong, and =
offer=20
your explanation for why we are there. </P>
<P>I find your refusal to answer strange. I don’t understand =
it, but here’s=20
a proposal: If you don’t intend to defend your positions, =
don’t take any. If=20
you do take positions, expect to be called on to defend them. </P>
<P>Finally, you ask Tom Hansen if he's protecting me. I must =
ask,=20
'From what?' Certainly not the blinding clarity of your answers, =
since those=20
are as difficult to locate as Iraqi WMDs. If reading your =
answers=20
is like staring at a solar eclipse, my eyes are safe.</P>
=
<P>Sunil</P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></B=
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