[Vision2020] Case closed: Future lawyers in training -- Moscow school wins mock trial competition against Bishop Kelly
Art Deco aka W. Fox
deco@moscow.com
Fri, 9 Apr 2004 16:11:02 -0700
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Don, et al,
I am afraid we disagree on this point.
Another quote from the news article:
". Displaying a firm grasp of Idaho Rules of Evidence. Both teams cited code
sections several times."
The kinds of questions allowed in court are determined by the Rules of Evidence.
The Logos team "displayed a firm grasp of Idaho's Rules of Evidence".
Thus, the Logos team cheated knowingly and intentionally:
"Asking a witness a question
knowing the judge will rule it stricken [read: in violation of the Rules of
Evidence],
but getting it before the jury at least once. The Logos team did that a few
times."
The Rules of Evidence have been developed and refined over many centuries. The
purpose of these rules is to insure a fair trial. When an attorney or in this
case the Logos team intentionally violates the rules they are cheating not only
the system but the person(s) on trial. In real life a criminal conviction may
result from such cheating by a prosecutor, especially if the defendant has an
inattentive or inept attorney.
When rules are broken by disallowable questions, alert, competent attorneys do
object, except in cases where the disallowable question may actually produce a
benefit. When well presented objections are persistently made, sometimes
prejudicial misconduct is assigned; sometimes a dishonorable attorney is found
in contempt and fined and/or sent to jail. Most of the time, however, trials
and their eventual verdicts are tainted by unfairness resulting in part from
dishonest practice.
Again, such intentionally dishonest practice of asking disallowable questions is
unethical and unscrupulous and results in an unfair trial. I hope, Don, et al,
that we can agree that in all cases a fair trial is a most important goal.
As a not naive court observer, one problem in my opinion with the current
justice system is that too much cheating is allowed by attorneys. Judges often
do not impose stiff enough admonitions and penalties to deter this kind of
dishonest behavior. Such behavior goes on and on. Such behavior is not
justified by the teenage excuse "everyone else is doing it". It is especially
galling when the practice of such dishonesty and disrespect for fairness and its
consequences is not only taught but its practice encouraged and praised by a
school hypocritically posing itself as "Christian."
If you have time to observe what goes on in court, especially when attorneys
habitually break the rules, you will wonder in what percentage of cases a just
verdict is found. You will also become quite disgusted.
Respectfully,
Wayne
Art Deco (Wayne Fox)
deco@moscow.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Coombs" <mushroom@moscow.com>
To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020@moscow.com>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Case closed: Future lawyers in training -- Moscow
school wins mock trial competition against Bishop Kelly
| Art Deco aka W. Fox wrote, in part:
|
| >
| > The is exactly the kind of unethical, underhanded behavior that causes
| > the populace to rank some lawyers [and all Christ Church Cult
| > Leaders] below the bottom rung of the integrity ladder.
| >
|
| I think Wayne is over the top on this. Our judicial system works
| (especially if those involved are wealthy) by letting lawyers object to
| the questions the opposing lawyers ask, and thus prevent answers. I
| would be surprised if many or any of the competing teams in this
| competition would rule out asking a question just because they suspected
| it might be stricken.
|
| If you want to change student competitions like the one in question it
| may be necessary to change our judicial system. Be my guest.
|
| Meanwhile, I congratulate the Logos team.
|
| Don Coombs
|
|
| _____________________________________________________
| List services made available by First Step Internet,
| serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
| http://www.fsr.net
| mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
| ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
|
|
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<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Don, et al,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>I am afraid we disagree on this point.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Another quote from the news article:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>"=95 Displaying a firm grasp of Idaho Rules of =
Evidence. Both=20
teams cited code sections several times."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>The kinds of questions allowed in court are =
determined by the=20
Rules of Evidence. The Logos team "displayed a firm grasp of =
Idaho's Rules=20
of Evidence".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Thus, the Logos team cheated knowingly and=20
intentionally: </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>"Asking a witness a question</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4><STRONG>knowing the judge will rule it stricken =
[read:=20
in violation of the Rules of =
Evidence]</STRONG>, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>but getting it before the jury at least once. The =
Logos team=20
did that a few times."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>The Rules of Evidence have been developed and =
refined over=20
many centuries. The purpose of these rules is to insure a fair=20
trial. When an attorney or in this case the Logos team =
intentionally=20
violates the rules they are cheating not only the system but the =
person(s) on=20
trial. In real life a criminal conviction may result from such =
cheating by=20
a prosecutor, especially if the defendant has an inattentive or inept=20
attorney.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>When rules are broken by disallowable questions, =
alert,=20
competent attorneys do object, except in cases where the =
disallowable=20
question may actually produce a benefit. When well presented =
objections=20
are persistently made, sometimes prejudicial misconduct is assigned; =
sometimes a=20
dishonorable attorney is found in contempt and fined and/or sent to =
jail. =20
Most of the time, however, trials and their eventual verdicts are =
tainted=20
by unfairness resulting in part from dishonest practice.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Again, such intentionally dishonest =
practice of=20
asking disallowable questions is unethical and unscrupulous and =
results in=20
an unfair trial. I hope, Don, et al, that we can agree that =
in all=20
cases a fair trial is a most important goal.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>As a not naive court observer, one problem in my =
opinion with=20
the current justice system is that too much cheating is allowed by=20
attorneys. Judges often do not impose stiff enough admonitions and =
penalties to deter this kind of dishonest behavior. Such behavior =
goes on=20
and on. Such behavior is not justified by the teenage excuse =
"everyone=20
else is doing it". It is especially galling when the practice of =
such=20
dishonesty and <STRONG>disrespect for fairness and its =
consequences</STRONG> is=20
not only taught but its practice encouraged and praised by a =
school=20
hypocritically posing itself as "Christian."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>If you have time to observe what goes on in court, =
especially=20
when attorneys habitually break the rules, you will wonder in what =
percentage of=20
cases a just verdict is found. You will also become quite=20
disgusted.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Respectfully,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4><BR>Wayne</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Art Deco (Wayne Fox)<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>----- Original Message ----- </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>From: "Don Coombs" <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:mushroom@moscow.com"><FONT=20
size=3D4>mushroom@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT size=3D4>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>To: "Vision 2020" <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT=20
size=3D4>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT =
size=3D4>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 1:35 PM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Case closed: Future =
lawyers in=20
training -- Moscow school wins mock trial competition against Bishop=20
Kelly</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT size=3D4>| Art Deco =
aka W. Fox=20
wrote, in part:<BR>| <BR>| > <BR>| > The is exactly the kind of =
unethical,=20
underhanded behavior that causes <BR>| > the populace to rank some =
lawyers=20
[and all Christ Church Cult <BR>| > Leaders] below the bottom rung of =
the=20
integrity ladder.<BR>| > <BR>| <BR>| I think Wayne is over the top on =
this.=20
Our judicial system works <BR>| (especially if those involved are =
wealthy) by=20
letting lawyers object to <BR>| the questions the opposing lawyers ask, =
and thus=20
prevent answers. I <BR>| would be surprised if many or any of the =
competing=20
teams in this <BR>| competition would rule out asking a question just =
because=20
they suspected <BR>| it might be stricken.<BR>| <BR>| If you want to =
change=20
student competitions like the one in question it <BR>| may be necessary =
to=20
change our judicial system. Be my guest.<BR>| <BR>| Meanwhile, I =
congratulate=20
the Logos team.<BR>| <BR>| Don Coombs<BR>| <BR>| <BR>|=20
_____________________________________________________<BR>| List =
services=20
made available by First Step Internet, <BR>| serving the =
communities of=20
the Palouse since 1994. <BR>|=20
&=
nbsp; =20
</FONT><A href=3D"http://www.fsr.net"><FONT=20
size=3D4>http://www.fsr.net</FONT></A><FONT=20
size=3D4> &nbs=
p; =20
<BR>| </FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT=20
size=3D4>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT size=3D4>|=20
=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=
=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=
=AF=AF=AF<BR>| <BR>|=20
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