[Vision2020] Fw: Iraq

Carl Westberg carlwestberg846@hotmail.com
Tue, 06 Apr 2004 10:40:38 -0700


I can't quite put my finger on why I feel this way, but I think Pat and I 
disagree about Iraq and George W. (Elite Force Aviator) Bush.  I don't 
know...just a gut feeling.                                                   
                                                                             
                                                                             
                                                                      Carl 
Westberg Jr.


>From: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut@moscow.com>
>To: "vision2020" <vision2020@moscow.com>
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: Iraq
>Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 10:04:16 -0700
>
>Even tho there are areas where killing and warfare is still happening and 
>will no matter what we or anyone else does. There are areas where great 
>things are happening. We won't hear it in our media but the returning 
>forces and in some other quiet places the good news is there. Just as in 
>the story about Rowanda there are those picking up the opportunity to pull 
>away from tribal warfare and begin to form a new country. It will take 
>dilignece on our part and a leadership that won't step down. We do not need 
>leadership that is whining to the UN and other countries that 'we need 
>help' when all they will do is muck up the process with their own demands.
>As to the war being about oil and revenge for daddy. This shows such a 
>complete ignorance about oil in the world and who Bush is that it isn't 
>even worthy of a site where people claim to be learned.
>PK
>
>   Fellow Humans,
>
>   I'm afraid that I'm always stuck with asking the irritating questions, 
>but here goes:
>
>   Would as many people have been killed, maimed, tortured, burned, or 
>suffered and continue to suffer the loss of relatives, friends, jobs, the 
>simple pleasures of life, etc. if there had been no war and Saddam was 
>still in power?
>
>   Is it possible, as disgusting as it may seem, that a strong dictatorship 
>is needed where ethnic and religious hate make peaceful co-existence 
>improbable without an iron hand?  Look what happened and is still happening 
>in formerly Yugoslavia after Tito.
>
>   How many people per day in Iraq were harmed by Saddam as compared to 
>those harmed  during the last year?
>
>   How will thousands of years of hate and dependence on unverifiable 
>religious dogma be erased or altered?  Will Iraq (or Afghanistan) become 
>another Israel vs. Arabs going on for who knows how long with huge amounts 
>of extreme human suffering?
>
>   America and the world with current American leadership is floundering in 
>a mess of their own creating.  Will a change of leadership help?  Is there 
>a solution at all?
>
>   I don't have the solution and I suspect no one really does, but needed 
>knowledge is missing at present to solve the problem.
>
>   Where do all go from here?  Please do not answer with more religious 
>dogma -- that is what partially placed all in this horrendous situation!
>
>   Sorrowfully,
>
>   Wayne
>
>   Art Deco  (Wayne Fox)
>   deco@moscow.com
>
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: Tom Hansen
>     To: Joan Opyr ; Vision2020 Moscow
>     Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 8:39 PM
>     Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fw: Iraq
>
>
>     Greetings Visionaires -
>
>     Although Mr. Finkbiner's suggestions are well intended, they are 
>likely to occur immediately following a same-sex marriage conducted by 
>Douglas Wilson.
>
>     Let's evaluate each of his three requirements in achieving a viable 
>solution.
>
>     "1) Allows the Iraqi people to develop a government that provides 
>stability and the rule of law."
>
>     And how is this to be achieved?  A government consisting of a 
>coalition representative of local religions?  Not likely since the Kurds, 
>Shiites, and Suunis having been warring with each other for over a thousand 
>years.
>
>     "2) Does not further inflame the region."
>
>     Nope.  No warm fuzzy here, either.  See 1) above.  And
>
>     "3) Demonstrates the US can carry out a reasonable plan, rather than 
>flounder from mistake to mistake."
>
>     This has not been achieved since the Great Hate of the early 1940s.  I 
>certainly do not see any FDRs or Harry Trumans on the horizon.  As long as 
>the deck consists of Bushes, Cheneys, Quayles, Clintons, and Gores, we will 
>just have to play the cards we are dealt.
>
>     It was a mistake getting into Iraq.  It is becoming a bigger mistake 
>the longer we remain there.  I can see us staying until June 30th (when the 
>new government is scheduled to take control), since we promised the people 
>of Iraq (more specificaly the Kurds) that timeline.
>
>     Tom Hansen
>     Moscow, Idaho
>
>
>       -----Original Message-----
>       From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com 
>[mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Joan Opyr
>       Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 7:34 PM
>       To: Vision2020 Moscow
>       Subject: [Vision2020] Fw: Iraq
>
>
>       Hi all,
>
>       Mike Finkbiner is no longer active on 2020, but he reads the Digest 
>and asked me to forward this.
>
>       Joan
>
>         ----- Original Message -----
>         From: Mike Finkbiner
>         Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 2:48 PM
>         To: auntiestablishment@hotmail.com
>         Subject: Iraq
>
>         One of the saddest things I see about the Iraq situation is that 
>people are arguing about why we got into this mess instead of working on 
>finding a solution.
>
>         Setting the administration's failures aside for a moment, I think 
>we need to work towards building a solution in Iraq that:
>
>         1) Allows the Iraqi people to develop a government that provides 
>stability and the rule of law.
>
>         2) Does not further inflame the region.
>
>         3) Demonstrates the US can carry out a reasonable plan, rather 
>than flounder from mistake to mistake.
>
>         I don't know if the current administration is capable of making 
>that happen.  I'm afraid there might not be <anyone> who could make it 
>happen, but if we spend most of our energy arguing over the cause rather 
>than working towards the solution, we are just going to end up in a worse 
>mess.
>
>         The Bush administration has demonstrated an ugly level of 
>dishonesty over this whole affair, but what's worse, I'm afraid, is that 
>they have demonstrated a high level of ignorance and incompetance.
>
>         Stupid and lazy people don't cause many problems, intelligent and 
>active people tend to solve problems, stupid and active people are capable 
>of making a real mess.
>
>         But it's a mess we can't honorably walk away from so I hope we can 
>concentrate finding a solution that works.
>
>         Bush deserves to get tossed out on his ear.  I hope Kerry can do 
>that without promising to abandon the Iraqi people.
>
>         Mike
>
>         Mike Finkbiner
>         mike_l_f@hotmail.com
>
>         Civilization is not something inborn or imperishable; it must be 
>acquired anew by every generation.
>         - Will Durant
>
>
>
>
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