[Vision2020] Iraq - What is to be done?
Tom Hansen
thansen@moscow.com
Mon, 5 Apr 2004 20:01:37 -0700
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Concerning casualties of friendly fire -
During Vietnam, friendly fire resulted in the loss of many troops over that
ten-year span. The cause of friendly fire has been attributed to everything
from faulty weapon systems to faulty intelligence. It can also be
attributed to a soldier's mental accuity playing tricks on him.
People seem to believe that with all this advanced weapons technology,
casualties as a result of friendly fire should be drastically reduced. That
simply is not true. As long as it takes a human finger to pull the trigger,
there will always be casualties by friendly fire (unfortunately). As long
as there are commanders in the field pushing their troops 110% of the way,
misjudgements occur. These commanders are partly to blame. When troops are
pushed to the extent that they are beyond reach of their support units,
accidents happen to eigher the combat units or the support units. Such was
the case with Jessica Lynch's unit in Iraq.
All the technology in the world will not prevent a poor decision that may
cause unnecessary loss of life. We simply must examine and evaluate all
possibilities before we take that step that puts us in harm's way.
Decisions made in the comfort of the Pentagon War Room many times possess
the privilege of time. That private, corporal, or sergeant entering a
village with intelligence he hopes is correct lacks that privilege.
Let's get out now.
Take care,
Tom Hansen
SFC, U.S. Army (Retired)
"Patriotism is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but the tranquil
and steady dedication of a lifetime."
--Adlai E. Stevenson, Jr.
-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On
Behalf Of Joan Opyr
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 7:31 PM
To: Vision2020 Moscow
Subject: [Vision2020] Iraq - What is to be done?
Rwiza writes:
>The war was a HUGE mistake and there is no way we can go back. Who was
right and wrong is not an >issue now. What is our exit strategy? What we
have on the drawing boards is not working and wont >work - come June!
>International assistance is required. Let us put our "Pride" aside and
involve a wider International >Community and we should be ready to share
responsibilities and risks. The current "coalition" is no >good!
>Pretending the 'coalition' is working will get more people killed i.e.
more Iraqis and the "coalition" >soldiers!
Agreed on all points. Perhaps we could begin by admitting first that our
"coalition of the willing" isn't. For a variety of reasons, and under a
variety of political covers, Spain, Poland, and New Zealand have publicly
discussed pulling out. Sure, they're not contributing all that much on the
ground, but it doesn't look good in terms of this being an international
effort, does it? Britain will stay for the long haul, but, bless their
hearts, they've never known when to quit.
That said, I don't support pulling our troops from Iraq. We've made this
bed; I think we're obliged to lie in it. Besides, pragmatically, we can't
afford to have a chaotic, Afghanistan/Yugoslavia-style, ethnically warring
Iraq on the border of our primary oil supply. Our only hope now is to eat
crow at the U. N. and/or NATO and get a truly international force, of which,
alas, we'll still be the primary supplier of troops. While the situation on
the ground at the moment does suggest Vietnam, we might still be able to
salvage something from this mess by following a more Clintonian model. I
didn't support our actions in Bosnia or Kosovo (largely because I thought
the negotiations were one-sided and ignored the rise of militant
fundamentalism among Bosnian and Kosovar muslims) but that region of the
world is certainly looking more functional these days than Iraq.
BTW, speaking of making beds and lying in them, in case you're wondering
whose head that is on the pillow next to King George, it's Crown Prince
Abdullah of the House of Saud. He's not much fun to sleep with -- he steals
all the covers and only puts out when he's "in the mood" -- but he is ours
and we are his, until we come up with something better than gasoline to run
in our Ford Expeditions. Too bad we can't run on wishful thinking. The
Bush Administration is pumping millions of barrels of that.
Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment
PS: I read an article today on the dramatic increase in friendly-fire
casualties in both this and the previous Gulf War. In Vietnam, friendly
fire casualties spanned from 2 to 12%, less in the early years, more during
operations like the Tet Offensive. In this war, and in Gulf War I, FF
casualties are estimated at 24%, and Marines and other soldiers on the
ground are saying that that's a low-ball. Poor planning? Poor
coordination? Poor communication? I'd be interested to hear from the
military folk on the list.
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verdana; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV><SPAN class=3D328084102-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana>Concerning =
casualties of=20
friendly fire - </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D328084102-06042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D328084102-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana>During =
Vietnam, friendly=20
fire resulted in the loss of many troops over that ten-year span. =
The=20
cause of friendly fire has been attributed to everything from faulty =
weapon=20
systems to faulty intelligence. It can also be attributed to a =
soldier's=20
mental accuity playing tricks on him.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D328084102-06042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D328084102-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana>People seem =
to believe=20
that with all this advanced weapons technology, casualties as a result =
of=20
friendly fire should be drastically reduced. That simply is not=20
true. As long as it takes a human finger to pull the trigger, =
there will=20
always be casualties by friendly fire (unfortunately). As long as =
there=20
are commanders in the field pushing their troops 110% of the way, =
misjudgements=20
occur. These commanders are partly to blame. When troops are =
pushed=20
to the extent that they are beyond reach of their support units, =
accidents=20
happen to eigher the combat units or the support units. Such was =
the case=20
with Jessica Lynch's unit in Iraq.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D328084102-06042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D328084102-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana>All the =
technology in the=20
world will not prevent a poor decision that may cause unnecessary loss =
of=20
life. We simply must examine and evaluate all possibilities before =
we take=20
that step that puts us in harm's way. Decisions made in the =
comfort of the=20
Pentagon War Room many times possess the privilege of time. That =
private,=20
corporal, or sergeant entering a village with intelligence he hopes is =
correct=20
lacks that privilege.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D328084102-06042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D328084102-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana>Let's get out =
now.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D328084102-06042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D328084102-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana>Take=20
care,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D328084102-06042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D328084102-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana>Tom=20
Hansen</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D328084102-06042004>SFC, U.S. Army =
(Retired)</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D328084102-06042004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D328084102-06042004>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS'; =
mso-bidi-font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; =
mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">"Patriotism=20
is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but the tranquil and =
steady=20
dedication of a lifetime." </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS'; =
mso-bidi-font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; =
mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">--Adlai=20
E. Stevenson, Jr.</SPAN></FONT></DIV></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]<B>On =
Behalf=20
Of </B>Joan Opyr<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 05, 2004 7:31 =
PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
Vision2020 Moscow<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Vision2020] Iraq - What is to be =
done?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Rwiza writes:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>The war was a HUGE mistake and there is no way we can go =
back. Who=20
was right and wrong is not an >issue now. What is our exit =
strategy? What=20
we have on the drawing boards is not working and wont >work - come=20
June!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>International assistance is required. Let us put our "Pride" =
aside=20
and involve a wider International >Community and we should be ready =
to=20
share responsibilities and risks. The current "coalition" is no =
>good!=20
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>Pretending the 'coalition' is working will get more people =
killed=20
i.e. more Iraqis and the "coalition" >soldiers!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Agreed on all points. Perhaps we could begin by admitting =
first=20
that our "coalition of the willing" isn't. For a variety of =
reasons, and=20
under a variety of political covers, Spain, Poland, and New =
Zealand have=20
publicly discussed pulling out. Sure, they're not =
contributing all=20
that much on the ground, but it doesn't look good in terms of this =
being an=20
international effort, does it? Britain will stay for the long =
haul, but,=20
bless their hearts, they've never known when to quit.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>That said, I don't support pulling our troops from Iraq. =
We've made=20
this bed; I think we're obliged to lie in it. Besides, =
pragmatically, we=20
can't afford to have a chaotic, Afghanistan/Yugoslavia-style, =
ethnically=20
warring Iraq on the border of our primary oil supply. Our =
only hope=20
now is to eat crow at the U. N. and/or NATO and get a truly =
international=20
force, of which, alas, we'll still be the primary supplier of =
troops. =20
While the situation on the ground at the moment does suggest =
Vietnam, we=20
might still be able to salvage something from this mess by =
following a=20
more Clintonian model. I didn't support our actions in Bosnia or =
Kosovo=20
(largely because I thought the negotiations were one-sided and =
ignored=20
the rise of militant fundamentalism among Bosnian and Kosovar muslims) =
but=20
that region of the world is certainly looking more functional =
these days=20
than Iraq.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>BTW, speaking of making beds and lying in them, in case you're =
wondering=20
whose head that is on the pillow next to King George, it's Crown =
Prince=20
Abdullah of the House of Saud. He's not much fun to sleep with=20
-- he steals all the covers and only puts out when he's "in the=20
mood" -- but he is ours and we are his, until we come up =
with=20
something better than gasoline to run in our Ford Expeditions. =
Too bad=20
we can't run on wishful thinking. The Bush Administration =
is=20
pumping millions of barrels of that.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>PS: I read an article today on the dramatic increase in =
friendly-fire casualties in both this and the previous Gulf =
War. In=20
Vietnam, friendly fire casualties spanned from 2 to =
12%, less in the=20
early years, more during operations like the Tet Offensive. =
In this=20
war, and in Gulf War I, FF casualties are estimated at 24%, =
and=20
Marines and other soldiers on the ground are saying that that's a =
low-ball. Poor planning? Poor coordination? Poor=20
communication? I'd be interested to hear from the military folk =
on the=20
list. </DIV><BR clear=3Dall>
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