[Vision2020] Re: Bible in school. Was Church and state
Joshua Nieuwsma
joshuahendrik@yahoo.com
Fri, 25 Jul 2003 09:21:04 -0700 (PDT)
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Mr. Nielsen,
even if I gave you an "official" divine definition of God's word, you wouldn't believe it. So why ask for one? With all due respect, your rational mind would try to find some flaw with it. Even if God was to appear before you and declare that the 66 books of the Bible are His Word and that He has preserved them throughout history for His Church, you would seek to find some reason to discredit His appearance. As Scrooge said: You might be perhaps a bit of bad beef, or a piece of underdone potato. No, there's more of gravy than the grave about you. Humbug I tell you! Humbug! I completely doubt that you would accept a voice from heaven saying "this is my son, hear him". Could you have conquered in the sign of the cross like Constantine did? With respect, I think you would be one of those dwarves in The Last Battle who stubbornly refused to believe they had gone through the stable door into paradise. And so to them paradise was a dank, dark, smelly, muddy, straw-strewn little sh!
ed. And
yet all around them was green grass, trees with perfect fruit, blue skies, pure streams of water, and next to them stood the King Himself.
It is impossible to have "objective" truth according to man. Science is an inductive discipline, it is not deductive. It cannot prove anything. Human logic is based upon our own concepts and ideas. Why should I believe your logic over mine?
And if the Bible indeed is not worthy of a single drop of blood in its defense, let alone blood spilled in the offense against the gates of Hell, what would you defend with your life, Mr. Nielsen? What is important enough to you to fight for? Daughter? Mother? Friend? House? Church? Nation? Why are any of those important? Who says they are? By what standard do you defend anything?
The Bible shouldn't be in the public school because the Bible is truth, and truth has been denied in most every government school.
have a good day,
Joshua Nieuwsma
Ralph Nielsen <nielsen@uidaho.edu> wrote:
> From: Joshua Nieuwsma
> Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:47:12 PM US/Pacific
> To: vision
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Church and State
>
>
> I for one don't want to see a bible class taught alongside mormonism,
> islam, hinduism, buddhism, and any other -'isms. Why set the Word of
> God equal with the words of confused man? Take the Bible out of the
> public schools completely! It's about time the goals of public
> education were consistent with their practices. And while we're at it,
> kick the Christian children out, too. Their parents should have
> have pulled them out a long time ago. It's safer outside on the
> highway than in the government school classroom.
>
> Allow me also to take Mr. Moffett's statement about religion as an
> integral part of some classes and point out that it is impossible for
> any class or "subject" (though the idea of "subjects" is a bad one
> anyhow. It's not how the mind works, in my opinion) to be taught with
> direct foundation in God's Holy Word.
>
> Mr. Moffett, your ecumenism of having every religion in a class taught
> about seems merely a grand utopia. Can you think of any schools that
> have successfully implemented such a plan anywhere in the world,
> without strife and division, or an undue emphasis of one religion over
> another?
>
> cheers,
>
> Joshua N.
>
Dear Joshua:
First of all, a lesson in grammar. Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, etc.
are proper nouns. They require a capital letter whether you like them
or not. The same is true of the Bible, which is under discussion here.
It is a proper noun, not a generic term.
Although many religions claim they have the true Word of God, none of
them have any objective proof. Religious warfare has been around for
centuries and is still with us today. A few days ago I asked (your
brother?) Luke for an official divine definition of exactly what
constitutes "God's Holy Word, the Bible." We are still waiting. The
reason is that all holy books have been written and compiled by human
beings, usually men.
I am personally well acquainted with the Bible. I have a couple of
dozen different translations, languages, and versions on my shelves. I
also have copies of various other allegedly divine books. Once you
realize that they are all of entirely human origin, you soon feel that
none of them is worth a single drop of blood.
Go in peace.
Ralph Nielsen
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<DIV>Mr. Nielsen,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>even if I gave you an "official" divine definition of God's word, you wouldn't believe it. So why ask for one? With all due respect, your rational mind would try to find some flaw with it. Even if God was to appear before you and declare that the 66 books of the Bible are His Word and that He has preserved them throughout history for His Church, you would seek to find some reason to discredit His appearance. As Scrooge said: <EM>You might be perhaps a bit of bad beef, or a piece of underdone potato. No, there's more of gravy than the grave about you. Humbug I tell you! Humbug! </EM>I completely doubt that you would accept a voice from heaven saying "this is my son, hear him". Could you have conquered in the sign of the cross like Constantine did? With respect, I think you would be one of those dwarves in <EM>The Last Battle</EM> who stubbornly refused to believe they had gone through the stable door into paradise. And so to them paradise was a dank, dark, smelly, muddy,
straw-strewn little shed. And yet all around them was green grass, trees with perfect fruit, blue skies, pure streams of water, and next to them stood the King Himself. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It is impossible to have "objective" truth according to man. Science is an inductive discipline, it is not deductive. It cannot <EM>prove</EM> anything. Human logic is based upon our own concepts and ideas. Why should I believe your logic over mine? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And if the Bible indeed is not worthy of a single drop of blood in its defense, let alone blood spilled in the offense against the gates of Hell, what would you defend with your life, Mr. Nielsen? What is important enough to you to fight for? Daughter? Mother? Friend? House? Church? Nation? Why are any of those important? Who says they are? By what standard do you defend anything? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The Bible shouldn't be in the public school because the Bible is truth, and truth has been denied in most every government school.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>have a good day,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Joshua Nieuwsma</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR><B><I>Ralph Nielsen <nielsen@uidaho.edu></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid; WIDTH: 100%">> From: Joshua Nieuwsma <JOSHUAHENDRIK@YAHOO.COM><BR>> Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:47:12 PM US/Pacific<BR>> To: vision <VISION2020@MOSCOW.COM><BR>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Church and State<BR>><BR>><BR>> I for one don't want to see a bible class taught alongside mormonism, <BR>> islam, hinduism, buddhism, and any other -'isms. Why set the Word of <BR>> God equal with the words of confused man? Take the Bible out of the <BR>> public schools completely! It's about time the goals of public <BR>> education were consistent with their practices. And while we're at it, <BR>> kick the Christian children out, too. Their parents should have <BR>> have pulled them out a long time ago. It's safer outside on the <BR>> highway than in the government school classroom. <BR>> <SNIP> <BR>> Allow me also!
to take
Mr. Moffett's statement about religion as an <BR>> integral part of some classes and point out that it is impossible for <BR>> any class or "subject" (though the idea of "subjects" is a bad one <BR>> anyhow. It's not how the mind works, in my opinion) to be taught with <BR>> direct foundation in God's Holy Word.<BR>> <BR>> Mr. Moffett, your ecumenism of having every religion in a class taught <BR>> about seems merely a grand utopia. Can you think of any schools that <BR>> have successfully implemented such a plan anywhere in the world, <BR>> without strife and division, or an undue emphasis of one religion over <BR>> another?<BR>> <BR>> cheers,<BR>> <BR>> Joshua N.<BR>><BR><BR>Dear Joshua:<BR>First of all, a lesson in grammar. Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. <BR>are proper nouns. They require a capital letter whether you like them <BR>or not. The same is true of the Bible, which is under discussion he!
re.
<BR>It is a proper noun, not a generic term.<BR>Although many religions claim they have the true Word of God, none of <BR>them have any objective proof. Religious warfare has been around for <BR>centuries and is still with us today. A few days ago I asked (your <BR>brother?) Luke for an official divine definition of exactly what <BR>constitutes "God's Holy Word, the Bible." We are still waiting. The <BR>reason is that all holy books have been written and compiled by human <BR>beings, usually men.<BR>I am personally well acquainted with the Bible. I have a couple of <BR>dozen different translations, languages, and versions on my shelves. I <BR>also have copies of various other allegedly divine books. Once you <BR>realize that they are all of entirely human origin, you soon feel that <BR>none of them is worth a single drop of blood.<BR>Go in peace.<BR>Ralph Nielsen</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
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