[Vision2020] RE: [Vision2020]Idaho Constitution/was re: liquor liability
Dale Courtney
dale@courtneys.us
Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:04:00 -0800
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My point was that just because the State (or Country, our County, or
whatever) passes a law does not mean that a law is lawful.=20
=20
My example was the holocaust. I was not drawing a comparison between
government schools and Nazism -- but feel free to extrapolate if you so
desire.=20
=20
I'll say it again -- if Idaho passes a law that everyone has to wear =
green
on Saint Patrick's Day, that doesn't make the legislation lawful.
=20
Only a statist mindset would bow to the fact that any law that a State =
does
pass makes the law ipso facto lawful.=20
=20
I would love to hear a statist argue that Germany was wrong to pass a =
law,
legalizing the murder of the Jews (hmmm; or would it be murder if it =
were
lawful?).=20
=20
By what standard could a law be judged to be unlawful if it were voted =
by
the majority? But that goes back to an epistemological question that
relativists cannot answer.=20
=20
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From: Sunil Ramalingam [mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, 13 February, 2003 12:55
To: dale@courtneys.us; vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020]Idaho Constitution/was re: liquor liability
Dale,=20
I think we left "Sillytown" in our rear-view mirror several miles ago, =
and
are heading to "Incredibly Bad Strawmanargumentville" at break-neck =
speed.
You have apparently abandoned your argument that public education is
unconstitutional, and are now saying that the state shouldn't engage in =
this
enterprise. Are you claiming that it's immoral (though constitutional) =
for
the state to establish and fund public education? It seems to me that's
your argument, since you're making some kind of comparison to the =
Holocaust
and genocide, which, quite frankly, I find breathtaking.
Since it seems clear that soon enough we will be engaging in the equally
interminable "What is right? And how would a relatavist know anyway?"
debate, how about we drop it and all hit ourselves on our heads with our
shoes? We'll end up at the same place either way.
I promise to stop now, or at least go offline.
Sunil
>From: "Dale Courtney"=20
>To:=20
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] re: liquor liability=20
>Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:19:20 -0800=20
>=20
>Sigh...=20
>=20
>Let's try this again.=20
>=20
>Let's say that the United States were to pass an amendment to the =
Federal=20
>Constitution saying that it was lawful to murder all Jews in the USA.=20
>=20
>Would, by passing such a law with a majority vote, make the murdering =
of=20
>millions of Jews legal? Would it make it lawful? Would it make it =
right?=20
>=20
>Dale=20
>=20
>-----Original Message-----=20
>From: Sunil Ramalingam [mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com]=20
>Sent: Thursday, 13 February, 2003 12:15=20
>To: dale@courtneys.us=20
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] re: liquor liability=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>Dale,=20
>=20
>You're not saying this is analagous, are you? But if you really want to =
go=20
>there, then if Idaho were to pass legislation similar to that passed by =
the
>Nazis (And did they pass such legislation? Or did they just start =
killing=20
>Jews?), it would run afoul of the federal constitution.=20
>=20
>Sunil=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> >From: "Dale Courtney"=20
> >To: "'Sunil Ramalingam'"=20
> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] re: liquor liability=20
> >Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 11:46:17 -0800=20
> >=20
> >Sunil,=20
> >=20
> >Let's back off from the specific and look at the general: If the =
State=20
> >passes a law, does that make it lawful?=20
> >=20
> >For example: it was legal in Germany under Hitler to murder the Jews. =
The
> >State said that was legal, and the actions were taken.=20
> >=20
> >By passing a law, making the murdering of millions of Jews legal, was =
the
> >State right? Even if the majority voted for it?=20
> >=20
> >Dale Courtney=20
> >Moscow, Idaho=20
> >=20
> >-----Original Message-----=20
> >From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com =
[mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On
> >Behalf Of Sunil Ramalingam=20
> >Sent: Thursday, 13 February, 2003 11:41=20
> >To: vision2020@moscow.com=20
> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] re: liquor liability=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >Anything? You're not saying I claimed that the state can do anything, =
are
> >you?=20
> >=20
> >No, the state constitution can't conflict with the United States=20
> >Constitution. But certainly Idaho can establish public schools and =
fund=20
> >them through taxes. You're not arguing that such a conflict exists, I =
> >assume, since you take the position that nothing in the U.S. =
Constitution
> >permits the feds from getting into the education business (I hope I =
am
not=20
> >mistating your position).=20
> >=20
> >Sunil=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > >From: "Dale Courtney"=20
> >=20
> > >To:=20
> >=20
> > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] re: liquor liability=20
> >=20
> > >Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 10:52:47 -0800=20
> >=20
> > >=20
> >=20
> > >Sunil,=20
> >=20
> > >=20
> >=20
> > >You wrote: "Since the Idaho Constitution calls for the =
establishment
and=20
> >=20
> > >funding of such schools, the state is acting within its lawful
authority=20
>in=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > >doing so."=20
> >=20
> > >=20
> >=20
> > >Are you saying that anything the Idaho Constitution establishes is=20
>lawful?=20
> >=20
> > >=20
> >=20
> > >You answer my question and I'll answer yours. :-)=20
> >=20
> > >=20
> >=20
> > >Dale=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > _____=20
> >=20
> >MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get=20
> >2 months FREE*. _____________________________________________________
List=20
> >services made available by First Step Internet, serving the =
communities
of=20
> >the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net =
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20
> =
>=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=
=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=
=AF=AF=AF=AF=20
> >=20
>=20
> _____=20
>=20
>The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2=20
>months FREE*=20
>=20
_____ =20
Protect your PC - Click here <http://g.msn.com/8HMGENUS/2755> for
McAfee.com VirusScan Online=20
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<DIV><SPAN class=3D804395620-13022003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>My=20
point was that just because the State (or Country, our County, or =
whatever)=20
passes a law does not mean that a law is lawful. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D804395620-13022003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D804395620-13022003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>My=20
example was the holocaust. </FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D804395620-13022003><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I was <U>not</U> drawing a =
comparison between=20
government schools and Nazism -- but feel free to extrapolate if you so =
desire.=20
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D804395620-13022003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D804395620-13022003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I'll=20
say it again -- if Idaho passes a law that everyone has to wear green on =
Saint=20
Patrick's Day, that doesn't make the legislation =
lawful.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D804395620-13022003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D804395620-13022003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Only a=20
statist mindset would bow to the fact that any law that a State =
<U>does</U> pass=20
makes the law <EM>ipso facto</EM> lawful. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D804395620-13022003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D804395620-13022003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
would love to hear a statist argue that Germany was wrong to pass a law, =
legalizing the murder of the Jews (hmmm; or <U>would</U> it be murder if =
it were=20
lawful?). </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D804395620-13022003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D804395620-13022003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>By=20
what standard could a law be judged to be unlawful if it were voted by =
the=20
majority? But that goes back to an epistemological question that =
relativists=20
cannot answer. </FONT><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff></SPAN></DIV></FONT></FONT></FONT>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D804395620-13022003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D804395620-13022003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Dale</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
Sunil Ramalingam=20
[mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, 13 =
February,=20
2003 12:55<BR><B>To:</B> dale@courtneys.us;=20
vision2020@moscow.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Vision2020]Idaho=20
Constitution/was re: liquor liability<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P>Dale, </P>
<P>I think we left "Sillytown" in our rear-view mirror several miles =
ago, and=20
are heading to "Incredibly Bad Strawmanargumentville" at break-neck =
speed.</P>
<P>You have apparently abandoned your argument that public education =
is=20
unconstitutional, and are now saying that the state shouldn't engage =
in this=20
enterprise. Are you claiming that it's immoral (though =
constitutional)=20
for the state to establish and fund public education? It seems =
to me=20
that's your argument, since you're making some kind of comparison to =
the=20
Holocaust and genocide, which, quite frankly, I find breathtaking.</P>
<P>Since it seems clear that soon enough we will be engaging in the =
equally=20
interminable "What is right? And how would a relatavist know =
anyway?"=20
debate, how about we drop it and all hit ourselves on our heads with =
our=20
shoes? We'll end up at the same place either way.</P>
<P>I promise to stop now, or at least go offline.</P>
<P>Sunil<BR><BR></P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>From: "Dale Courtney" <DALE@COURTNEYS.US>
<DIV></DIV>>To: <VISION2020@MOSCOW.COM>
<DIV></DIV>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] re: liquor liability=20
<DIV></DIV>>Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:19:20 -0800=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>Sigh...=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>Let's try this again.=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>Let's say that the United States were to pass an =
amendment to=20
the Federal=20
<DIV></DIV>>Constitution saying that it was lawful to murder all =
Jews in=20
the USA.=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>Would, by passing such a law with a majority vote, make =
the=20
murdering of=20
<DIV></DIV>>millions of Jews legal? Would it make it lawful? Would =
it make=20
it right?=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>Dale=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>-----Original Message-----=20
<DIV></DIV>>From: Sunil Ramalingam =
[mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com]=20
<DIV></DIV>>Sent: Thursday, 13 February, 2003 12:15=20
<DIV></DIV>>To: dale@courtneys.us=20
<DIV></DIV>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] re: liquor liability=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>Dale,=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>You're not saying this is analagous, are you? But if =
you really=20
want to go=20
<DIV></DIV>>there, then if Idaho were to pass legislation similar =
to that=20
passed by the=20
<DIV></DIV>>Nazis (And did they pass such legislation? Or did they =
just=20
start killing=20
<DIV></DIV>>Jews?), it would run afoul of the federal constitution. =
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>Sunil=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> >From: "Dale Courtney"=20
<DIV></DIV>> >To: "'Sunil Ramalingam'"=20
<DIV></DIV>> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] re: liquor liability=20
<DIV></DIV>> >Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 11:46:17 -0800=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >Sunil,=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >Let's back off from the specific and look at the =
general:=20
If the State=20
<DIV></DIV>> >passes a law, does that make it lawful?=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >For example: it was legal in Germany under Hitler =
to=20
murder the Jews. The=20
<DIV></DIV>> >State said that was legal, and the actions were =
taken.=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >By passing a law, making the murdering of millions =
of Jews=20
legal, was the=20
<DIV></DIV>> >State right? Even if the majority voted for it?=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >Dale Courtney=20
<DIV></DIV>> >Moscow, Idaho=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >-----Original Message-----=20
<DIV></DIV>> >From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20
[mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On=20
<DIV></DIV>> >Behalf Of Sunil Ramalingam=20
<DIV></DIV>> >Sent: Thursday, 13 February, 2003 11:41=20
<DIV></DIV>> >To: vision2020@moscow.com=20
<DIV></DIV>> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] re: liquor liability=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >Anything? You're not saying I claimed that the =
state can=20
do anything, are=20
<DIV></DIV>> >you?=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >No, the state constitution can't conflict with the =
United=20
States=20
<DIV></DIV>> >Constitution. But certainly Idaho can establish =
public=20
schools and fund=20
<DIV></DIV>> >them through taxes. You're not arguing that such a =
conflict exists, I=20
<DIV></DIV>> >assume, since you take the position that nothing =
in the=20
U.S. Constitution=20
<DIV></DIV>> >permits the feds from getting into the education =
business=20
(I hope I am not=20
<DIV></DIV>> >mistating your position).=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >Sunil=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >From: "Dale Courtney"=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >To:=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] re: liquor =
liability=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 10:52:47 -0800=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >Sunil,=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >You wrote: "Since the Idaho Constitution =
calls for=20
the establishment and=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >funding of such schools, the state is acting =
within=20
its lawful authority=20
<DIV></DIV>>in=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >doing so."=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >Are you saying that anything the Idaho =
Constitution=20
establishes is=20
<DIV></DIV>>lawful?=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >You answer my question and I'll answer yours. =
:-)=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > >Dale=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> > _____=20
<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>> >MSN 8 helps ELIMINATE E-MAIL VIRUSES. Get=20
<DIV></DIV>> >2 months FREE*.=20
_____________________________________________________ List=20
<DIV></DIV>> >services made available by First Step Internet, =
serving=20
the communities of=20
<DIV></DIV>> >the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net=20
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20
<DIV></DIV>> =
>=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=
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<DIV></DIV>> >=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>> _____=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>>The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2=20
<DIV></DIV>>months FREE*=20
<DIV></DIV>>=20
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