[Vision2020] The Benefits of Polarization
Ted Moffett
ted_moffett@hotmail.com
Thu, 06 Feb 2003 19:23:37 +0000
Bob, et. al.
Yes, of course, religion is a matter of faith. And depending exactly on
your religion (some people stretch the definition of religion to include
belief systems that might be rationally defendable), it should not be
expected for a practitioner of religion to always defend their beliefs on
rational grounds.
But this is exactly what many Christians do: defend their beliefs on
rational grounds! And then they turn around and insist that people who do
not believe in their religion are not being rational.
Thus we have Douglas Wilson, local minister and Christian Trinitarian, bless
his soul, insisting on the irrationality of "progressives" and "relativists"
who fail to understand that their relativism renders any moral outrage they
may feel an irrational state of mind. I agree he scores a point on this
issue.
So, Bob, when Christians' play the game of logic and evidence to defend
their beliefs, and also attack other ideologies based on these arguments,
then we are not playing different games as you suggest. Same game with the
same rules, unless you want to wade into the deep waters of relativistic
systems of logic that are different for different ideologies, deep waters
which if waded into far enough render all communication of rational thought
across ideological systems essentially pointless. If you sink into these
depths, anyone can insist that any ideology makes sense from the point of
view of their system of logic. I do not share this sort of extreme defense
of subjective logic that rejects the demand for shared rules of logic that
all ideologies need to follow to be rational.
Ted
>From: Bob Hoffmann <escape@alt-escape.com>
>To: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] The Benefits of Polarization
>Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 21:42:38 -0800
>
>I learned (at a private college) that the justification of religion on
>rational grounds is a fallacy. Religion is at its base a matter of faith,
>not a matter of science. Once a person told me that her faith could be
>defended on reason and mathematics alone, as someone had written a book
>mathematically proving God to exist. I asked her, "If I read that book,
>and could point out a mathematical flaw, thereby proving that logically
>there was no God, would you abandon your religious beliefs?" She
>entertained the notion for a few moments, and then answered in the
>negative. I would expect any person of faith to do the same.
>
>So I do not call for a logical defense of Christianity (or Islam, Judaism,
>Buddhism, etc.). To do so is to not understand religion, with its
>mysteries and miracles. I do call for people of these religions to respect
>me and my rights as I respect them and their rights. If I claim to be a
>rationalist, a man of science, and a man of faith asks me to logically
>justify myself, I cannot turn that around and ask him to logically justify
>his beliefs. It's like a basketball player pointing out the no-good catch
>of a bounced football, and the football player turning around and saying,
>"But you bounce your ball all the time!" Different games, different rules.
>
>At 03:17 AM 2/6/2003 +0000, Ted Moffett wrote:
>>Doug, et. al.
>>
>>Talk about a polarizing ideology, let's discuss the dogma and restrictions
>>imposed by certain forms of Christianity! Religion almost always imposes
>>authoritarian ideological control over peoples lives by setting up us
>>versus them, good versus evil dichotomies that are rigid and absolute,
>>thus simplifying for the adherents of said religion what might be the
>>difficult task of judging other people of differing ideologies or
>>navigating perplexing moral choices.
>>
>>I'm not going to give energy here to those endless loops of logic whereby
>>so called progressives who promote "pluralism" and "relativism" get caught
>>defending certain values so vehemently that certain absolutist
>>Trinitarians drool over the contradictions that have snared those poor
>>misled progressives. I merely point out the logical difficulties involved
>>in rationally defending Christianity, which are so various and profound it
>>takes an extreme compartmentalization of the mind to on the one hand so
>>vigorously point out the logical problems with progressivism while failing
>>to admit the logical flaws in Christianity.
>>
>>Their is an intellectual "bad faith" in certain Christians who hide behind
>>a certainty of knowledge that is not rationally defendable, while thumbing
>>their noses at the people in doubt who, though of course not without
>>definite values on life, at least have the honesty and integrity to admit
>>they really don't have all the answers to life's big questions.
>>
>>Ted
>>
>>>From: "Doug Jones" <credenda@moscow.com>
>>>To: "'Vision 20/20'" <vision2020@moscow.com>
>>>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] The Benefits of Polarization
>>>Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:58:04 -0500
>>>
>>>Visionaries,
>>>
>>>Melynda Huskey complained about Merkles polarizing language and
>>>pleaded for constructive dialogue, and Sunil said whats the point? No
>>>minds are going to be changed.
>>>
>>>But progressives know well the importance of polarization. Theyre
>>>experts at it. Its what you do in a democracy when people wont drop
>>>their particular injustice. Polarization highlights an opponents
>>>hypocrisy to a broader audience. Dialogue only works where people share
>>>many assumptions and are willing to grow. Local progressives have shown
>>>themselves to be the last group to understand real change; they are
>>>locked in decades old categories.
>>>
>>>Local progressives and public school advocates find themselves defending
>>>anti-pluralistic, dated, back of the bus policies to fund their narrow
>>>ideologies. Everyone knows minds cant change on this issue, just as
>>>every knew that public busses would never allow blacks up front.
>>>Polarization offers some hope to those outside of political power. Local
>>>polarization will only increase until simple pluralism prevails.
>>>
>>>Doug Jones
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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>Bob Hoffmann
>820 S. Logan St.
>Moscow, ID 83843
>
>Tel: 208 883-0642
>
>
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