[Vision2020] Get the facts right/1982
Donovan Arnold
donovanarnold@hotmail.com
Wed, 06 Aug 2003 00:03:42 -0700
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<P>Yes, let us get the facts straight (if nothing else) Mr. Moss, you just shot yourself in the foot.</P>
<P>First, you make my point in this only article you can find in the 21st century to make your claims:</P></DIV>
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<P>JOURNAL of HOMOSEXUALITY. 2002;42(4):107-17, Suicide among homosexual youth by Lebson, M., University of Maryland: "The contemporary literature on homosexual youth and suicide risk are reviewed in order to delineate the incidence, development, causes/risk factors, and effects of suicidality among homosexual youth. <EM><U>In comparison to heterosexual youth, homosexual youths are more likely to attempt and complete suicide. </U></EM><STRONG>They <U>confront more challenges </U>in identity development and face more risk factors for suicidality</STRONG>. In some cases, homosexual youths might use suicidal ideation as a means of rediscovering a will to live." <BR></P>
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<P>Now where do you think that "confront more challenges" comes from? How many dogs, cats, rams, elephants, sheep, and countless other mammals that are homosexual do you know that commit or attempt suicide? Probably none. Yet many are discovered to be exclusively homosexual. So obviously, those extra challenges they are referring to are people that discriminate against them. Let us find some gay people and ask them Mr. Moss, what makes them want to shoot themselves, people that understand, or people that call them names deny them their civil rights? </P>
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<P>"It is true that no matter how long two men engage in sexual intercourse, they will never conceive a child. Thus, they have no necessity to support the abortion industry. But does anyone think that the concept of traditional marriage that Mr. Harrell was trying to present includes the use of abortion?"</P>
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<P>Would it surprise you that the majority of women that get abortions are married working women that don't want to give up their careers to raise a baby? Yes, Mr. Moss, married couples do have more sex than single couples, the greater the frequency of sex, the greater the chance of pregnancy. That is a fact.</P>
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<P>"I could not just sit idly by and let this debate go on, without bringing forward the much neglected and shoved-beneath-the-covers medical literature." </P>
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<P>There is good reason why it is buried, the dust covered it.</P>
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<P>JOURNAL of ADOLESCENT HEALTH CARE. <U><STRONG>1985 </STRONG></U>Jul;6(4):278-85<BR>PHARMACOTHERAPY. <STRONG><U>1982 </U></STRONG>Jan-Feb;2(1):32-42. </P>
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<P>If you have to go back two decades and try to support your claims, that is evidence enough for anyone with a decent education to know that you don't have anything substantial to support your claims. Most of these studies take years to conduct and longer to publish, which means most of your evidence is coming from the late 1970's. In 1982 the knowledge of gay and lesbian behavior is a tiny fraction of what we really know today. I can find anything I want in the 1980's about gay people. You might as well use articles from the 50's to 70's. Can you name one fact about gay people that in not in debate or been disproved that was stated in the 1980's? Come'on man, give us a break! They didn't know what AIDS was in 1982. These studies consisted of some biased people going downtown LA or SF and picking up some prostitutes and applying findings to the general gay population. I can't even name one famous gay person that was out in <STRONG><U>1982</U></STRONG>. W!
eren't they saying in 1982 that you got AIDS by touching a gay person? Are these Doctors even alive today? Do they even agree with their findings now if they are? </P>
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<P>"Since when has illegalizing behavior that leads to rectitis, penile edema, anal fissure, fecal incontinence, rectosigmoid tears, and cambylobacter jejuni been oppressive?"</P>
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<P>Well, that is the point isn't it? If gay people are allowed to marry and were monogamous wouldn't that reduce it? I would tend to think it would. Well, that is of course if you have a gay population that cheats on the same level as straight people, which thankfully they don't. So your denial of gays and lesbians the right to marry is putting them in a greater position of harm isn't it? Those are FACTS Mr. Moss.</P>
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<P>Second, Lesbian sex is the safest sex of any! So if this is your standard, then hey, you should be all for this. That is a Fact Mr. Moss.</P>
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<P>Third, your state "Shouldn't we have a grip on the reality of what happens deep in the bedrooms of those who are making personal choices to "love each other"?"</P>
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<P>NO! And again NO! You should NOT know what goes on the privacy of the bedroom of anyone except you and your partner. You should have no clue. That is the whole point of the Supreme Court Ruling and the 38 states that got rid of those pre-1920 laws in the first place. I make the same arguments for viagra, who wants to imagine what goes on in the bedroom of two old people either, but you know what, it is their right. That is a Fact Mr. Moss.</P>
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<P>Fourth, marriage of a gay or lesbian couple does not mean that a couple will engage in anal intercourse any more or less than a heterosexual couple will. Less so in the case of Lesbian marriages, which you are quick to ignore in your arguments. There are many homosexual couples that do not engage in this and many heterosexual couples that do. So out the window goes that argument. And the only way to prove who does and does not, is put video cameras in the bedroom. Which I hope you even object to. That is a Fact Mr. Moss.</P>
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<P>Finally, heterosexual sex is the leading cause of AIDS in India, China, and Africa. Even in married couples. How do you think these married couples get AIDS Mr. Moss in countries where the largest form of employment for women in working world is prostitution? That is a Fact Mr. Moss.</P>
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<P>The 1980's Mr. Moss, is not presenting FACTS. It is presenting old, archaic information that is biased, unfunded, and out of date, out of date just like your like your ideals and view of the world.</P>
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<P>Halley's Comet has come and passed since your FACTS have been found and printed. Let's try to catch up with the rest of country before it passes again, shall we?</P>
<P>Thanks!</P>
<P>Donovan J Arnold</P>
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<DIV></DIV>>From: "John Moss" <JOHNMOSS@MOSCOW.COM>
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<DIV></DIV>>To: "Donovan Arnold" <DONOVANARNOLD@HOTMAIL.COM>, <JOHNBHARRELL@YAHOO.COM>, <PETEW@COMPLETEBBS.COM>, <VISION2020@MOSCOW.COM>
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<DIV></DIV>>Subject: [Vision2020] Get the facts right
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<DIV></DIV>>Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:23:58 -0700
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<DIV></DIV>>Greetings, Visionaries:
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<DIV></DIV>>This message is in response to the Vision2020 conversation between Mr. Arnold and Mr. Harrell, titled "Re: Constitutional Ban on Gay Marriage."
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<DIV></DIV>>Mr. Arnold was arguing for the sanity of homosexual marriage, whereas Mr. Harrell was arguing for the sanity of traditional heterosexual marriage. I will leave the claims about the KKK, nazis and the confederate flag to Mr. Arnold and Mr. Harrell to sort out.
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<DIV></DIV>>But what I hope to do here is bring into context some of Mr. Arnold's wild "sanity" claims about the insanity of traditional marriages:
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<DIV></DIV>>MR. ARNOLD: "You [John Harrell] support a system of families that leads to teenage suicide. Sane or insane?"
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<DIV></DIV>>JOURNAL of HOMOSEXUALITY. 2002;42(4):107-17, Suicide among homosexual youth by Lebson, M., University of Maryland: "The contemporary literature on homosexual youth and suicide risk are reviewed in order to delineate the incidence, development, causes/risk factors, and effects of suicidality among homosexual youth. In comparison to heterosexual youth, homosexual youths are more likely to attempt and complete suicide. They confront more challenges in identity development and face more risk factors for suicidality. In some cases, homosexual youths might use suicidal ideation as a means of rediscovering a will to live."
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<DIV></DIV>>MR. ARNOLD: "You support a system that leads to 1.2 million abortions. Sane or insane?"
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<DIV></DIV>>MR. ARNOLD: "You support a system that spreads diseases that kills people slowly inch by inch. Sane or insane?"
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<DIV></DIV>>Okay, I highly doubt Mr. Arnold has gone to medical school. I have never known a faithfully married heterosexual couple to contract an STD, let alone any of the many medical conditions that face homosexual men.
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<DIV></DIV>>The real tragedy in this whole legality-of-homosexuality debate is the silence of the media towards the masses of medical literature on this subject. For those with a strong stomach, read on:
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<DIV></DIV>>JOURNAL of ADOLESCENT HEALTH CARE. 1985 Jul;6(4):278-85. Medical problems of the homosexual adolescent by Owen WF Jr.: "Four general groups of conditions may be encountered in homosexually active men: classical sexually transmitted diseases (gonorrhea, infections with Chlamydia trachomatis, syphilis, herpes simplex infections, genital warts, pubic lice, scabies); enteric diseases (infections with Shigella species, Campylobacter jejuni, Entamoeba histolytica, Giardia lamblia, hepatitis A, hepatitis B, hepatitis non-A, non-B, and cytomegalovirus); trauma (fecal incontinence, hemorrhoids, anal fissure, foreign bodies, rectosigmoid tears, allergic proctitis, penile edema, chemical sinusitis, inhaled nitrite burns, and sexual assault of the male patient); and the acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS)."
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<DIV></DIV>>PHARMACOTHERAPY. 1982 Jan-Feb;2(1):32-42. Enteric diseases of homosexual men, by Baker RW, Peppercorn MA: "Certain enteric ailments are particularly common among homosexual men. They are primarily infectious diseases and include not only such common venereal diseases as gonorrhea and syphilis but also infections not usually regarded as being sexually transmitted. Among the latter are shigellosis, salmonellosis, giardiasis, and amebiasis."
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<DIV></DIV>>MR. ARNOLD: "You support a system that oppresses masses in the society that claims to give people equal rights for all. Sane or insane?"
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<DIV></DIV>>Since when has illegalizing behavior that leads to rectitis, penile edema, anal fissure, fecal incontinence, rectosigmoid tears, and cambylobacter jejuni been oppressive?
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<DIV></DIV>>Yes, the decision to engage in anal sex is a personal choice. But those who do must realize the physical consequences they will likely suffer. And in some countries, legal consequences.
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<DIV></DIV>>Sorry if anyone was not braced for the rather grotesque medical documenation. But we're Americans. We know all about the gushy-gushy love presented on TV and in the movies. Shouldn't we have a grip on the reality of what happens deep in the bedrooms of those who are making personal choices to "love each other"?
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<DIV></DIV>>I could not just sit idly by and let this debate go on, without bringing forward the much neglected and shoved-beneath-the-covers medical literature. It seemed like the only just thing to do for this forum, and those who are actually trying to sort out the good of the Moscow community.
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<DIV></DIV>>Let's get the facts on the table. Now we can continue the debate on whether and which personal choices should be legislated.
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<DIV></DIV>>John Moss
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<DIV></DIV>>For a reference on any of the medical terms used above, please refer to the online version of the Merriam Webster Medical Dictionary at http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH?t=9276.
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<DIV></DIV>> ----- Original Message -----
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<DIV></DIV>> From: Donovan Arnold
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<DIV></DIV>> To: johnbharrell@yahoo.com ; petew@completebbs.com ; vision2020@moscow.com
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<DIV></DIV>> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 2:51 PM
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<DIV></DIV>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Constitutional Ban on Gay Marriage
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<DIV></DIV>> Mr. Harrell,
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<DIV></DIV>> Let us compare exactly what you define as "sane" and what I define as "sane" and we will see which is more sane.
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<DIV></DIV>> You support a system of families that leads to teenage suicide. Sane or insane?
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<DIV></DIV>> You support a system that leads to 1.2 million abortions. Sane or insane?
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<DIV></DIV>> You support a system that oppresses masses in the society that claims to give people equal rights for all. Sane or insane?
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<DIV></DIV>> You support a system that spreads diseases that kills people slowly inch by inch. Sane or insane?
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<DIV></DIV>> You support bigotry and hatred of over 15 million Americans. Sane or insane?
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<DIV></DIV>> You back the ideals and morals of the KKK, the Aryan Nations, and the Nazi Party. Sane or insane?
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<DIV></DIV>> You back the destruction of 15 million Americans and don't wish to live the way you say to live. Sane or insane?
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<DIV></DIV>> You ought to waving a flag of the Confederacy on your door step Mr. Harrell.
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<DIV></DIV>> Celebrate Diversity not Hatred!
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<DIV></DIV>> If fighting for the civil rights of law abiding, tax paying, decent Americans to be able to live in a way that doesn't harm another person is insane and perverse Mr. Harrell, then I am the most insane and perverse person you will ever meet. If fighting for the principles of the those that hate, judge, and condemn is sane and normalcy, then I guess you are far more normal and less perverse than I am. You sleep well while thousands of teens blow their brains out rather than deal with people like you. I sleep well knowing that, just maybe, I will give them a little glimer of hope that some people out in the cold cruel world do care about them, and think they should be given just a little bit of a chance at a decent fair life.
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<DIV></DIV>> Donovan J Arnold
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<DIV></DIV>> >From: John Harrell
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<DIV></DIV>> >To: Donovan Arnold , petew@completebbs.com, vision2020@moscow.com
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<DIV></DIV>> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Constitutional Ban on Gay Marriage
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<DIV></DIV>> >Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:58:42 -0700 (PDT)
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<DIV></DIV>> >Mr. Donovan Arnold,
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<DIV></DIV>> >Yes, someone is crazy or insane here.
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<DIV></DIV>> >Let's look at it:
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<DIV></DIV>> >Normal, traditional families OR those that are trying to promote perversity.
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<DIV></DIV>> >Normalcy vs perversity.
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<DIV></DIV>> >Normal or insane.
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<DIV></DIV>> >You want to say that everyone that doesn't "celebrate" perversity is crazy or insane.
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<DIV></DIV>> >Well, your promoting of perversity is what makes you insane, crazy, not normal.
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<DIV></DIV>> >Celebrate normalcy not insanity!
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<DIV></DIV>> >Cheers!
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<DIV></DIV>> >John Harrell
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<DIV></DIV>> >From: John Harrell
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<DIV></DIV>> >To: Donovan Arnold , petew@completebbs.com, vision2020@moscow.com
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<DIV></DIV>> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Constitutional Ban on Gay Marriage
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<DIV></DIV>> >Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:58:42 -0700 (PDT)
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<DIV></DIV>> >Mr. Donovan Arnold,
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<DIV></DIV>> >Yes, someone is crazy or insane here.
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<DIV></DIV>> >Let's look at it:
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<DIV></DIV>> >Normal, traditional families OR those that are trying to promote perversity.
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<DIV></DIV>> >Normalcy vs perversity.
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<DIV></DIV>> >Normal or insane.
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<DIV></DIV>> >You want to say that everyone that doesn't "celebrate" perversity is crazy or insane.
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<DIV></DIV>> >Well, your promoting of perversity is what makes you insane, crazy, not normal.
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<DIV></DIV>> >Celebrate normalcy not insanity!
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<DIV></DIV>> >Cheers!
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<DIV></DIV>> >John Harrell
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