[Vision2020] Re: Constitutional Ban on Gay Marriage

Donovan Arnold donovanarnold@hotmail.com
Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:30:12 -0700


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<P>Ralph, Mr. Wilson, etc. . .,</P></DIV>
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<P>I don't think you will ever through to Mr. Wilson. Using logic to get through to him is like using a wet noodle to get through a steel door. </P>
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<P>If he wants to believe that the state should enforce the law so that all marriages fit his preferences that is his right to do so. I find that him proclaiming only his marriage is the only one that the state should endorse and all others are immoral&nbsp; ironic at best&nbsp;and hypocritical at worst.</P>
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<P>If&nbsp;marriage is a religious issue,&nbsp;why do they allow&nbsp;people that are not Christian to get married? Or why do they allow people that are of different faiths to get married? Would it not be confusing to a child to have one parent be atheist, another Muslim, living in a society of Christians?</P>
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<P>Why do they allow mail-order-brides? Is this not immoral? Or how about the marriage of a 80-year-old man to a 18-year-old girl? I don't see these Moralists fighting against these behaviors either.</P>
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<P>When you boil it down, it comes to the government saying you can marry anyone on the basis of gender only. Not on the basis of if you love them.</P>
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<P>Every argument they make for&nbsp;marriage to only be between a man and woman can be broken down to tiny pieces that&nbsp;wash away easily in logic and reason.</P>
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<P>Argument 1) They can't&nbsp;reproduce.&nbsp;</P>
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<P>This means that the moment that a&nbsp;women stops menstruating that the man should dump his wife? And with modern technology same sex partners now can reproduce, only&nbsp;now in a controlled manner that makes sure the child will be well taken care of.</P>
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<P>Argument 2) They can't really love each other. </P>
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<P>Well, this&nbsp;is impossible to prove or disprove to any degree of absolute certainty. Further, I don't see people attempting to break up Hollywood marriages, or rich men marrying young little&nbsp;Playboy models. This boils down to the government trying to get people to prove that they&nbsp;REALLY do love their partner. </P>
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<P>Argument 3) The parts don't fit. </P>
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<P>Well, in this case, let&nbsp;us hire doctors to make sure they do with heterosexual male and female couples too. Where is the push for this?</P>
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<P>Argument&nbsp;4) It is against the Bible. </P>
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<P>Gee, so is hating people, should we make that illegal too?</P>
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<P>Argument 5) It will lead to polygamy, bestiality, and pedophilia. </P>
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<P>This is the opposite&nbsp;direction of where gay marriage is going. Polygamy,&nbsp;is a violation of the rights of women, bestiality is a violation of animal rights, and pedophilia is a violation of the rights of children.</P>
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<P>Anymore people that would like to add more arguments please feel free to.</P>
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<P>Thanks!</P>
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<P>Donovan J Arnold&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR><BR></P>
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;From: Ralph Nielsen <NIELSEN@UIDAHO.EDU>
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;To: vision2020@moscow.com 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Constitutional Ban on Gay Marriage 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:17:50 -0700 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;RALPH NIELSEN Mon Aug 4 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt; Thank you, Doug, for further illustration of not only how illogical 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;you are but also how disingenuous you can be. I said nothing about 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;"Christian morality," whatever that might be, but pointed out that 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;AS FAR AS THE STATE IS CONCERNED marriage is a secular legal 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;contract. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt; If Doug and other ecclesiastical poobahs wish to regulate marriage 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;according to their alleged divine strictures, they are perfectly 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;free to preach it to their followers. Likewise, the state also makes 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;provision for divorce, whether some poobahs consider it to be moral 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;or not. Some folks believe marriage is wrong, and some folks believe 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;divorce is a sin, but that is of no concern to the state. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt; I said nothing about sexual liberation but it seems to loom large 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;in Doug's vocabulary. Neither do I promote polygamy, as Doug 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;implies. In fact, many biblical heroes had more than one wife, e.g., 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;Gideon, who had 70 sons "for he had many wives" (Judges 8:30). 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt; I think same-sex marriage is a good idea because it would place 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;those couples on the same legal basis as bisexual couples. And don't 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;forget that they would be under the same rules if they wanted to get 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;divorced. We have laws to protect social stability and I think 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;same-sex marriage will do just that. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;From: Douglas <DOUGWILS@MOSCOW.COM>
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 8:27:13 AM US/Pacific 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;To: vision2020@moscow.com 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Constitutional Ban on Gay Marriage 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;Far from this being a demonstration of how illogical I am, it is 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;actually a demonstration of whether or not ethical relativists have 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;the courage of their convictions. If we reject the Christian 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;morality that marriage consists of one man, one woman, one time, 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;and we base this rejection on the fact that marriage is now only a 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;"secular legal contract," then on what basis, Ralph, do we limit 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;secular legal contract to just two parties? We were mistaken, it 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;appears, in limiting marriage to heteros. Why are we not also 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;mistaken in limiting it to couples? I urge you, Ralph, to stop 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;trying to impede sexual liberation. The last thing we need around 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;here is atheistic bluestocking wowserism. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;RALPH NIELSEN 02:18 PM 8/2/2003 -0700, wrote: 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt; Doug Wilson doesn't seem to want to recognize the 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;difference between church and state, so he gives us a homily about 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;hypocrisy and sin instead of recognizing that marriage, as far as 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;the state is concerned, is not a sacred institution, but a secular 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;legal contract binding on the two parties concerned. He 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;illogically equates monogamy with polygamy and, even more 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;illogically, pretends that polygamy is a matter of how many people 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;can physically fit into a bedroom. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt; Doug concludes his diatribe by equating marriage laws 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;with building codes. Anyone who hasn't been indoctrinated with 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;Wilsonian "logic" can readily observe how totally illogical he is. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt; Ralph Nielsen 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;From: Douglas <DOUGWILS@MOSCOW.COM>
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 8:48:50 AM US/Pacific 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;To: vision2020@moscow.com 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Constitutional Ban on Gay Marriage 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;There is an important difference between sexual hypocrisy, which 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;our nation has in spades, and which practices privately what it 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;condemns publicly, and the tragic way of removing that hypocrisy, 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;which is to bring yourself to approve the sin formally. Hypocrisy 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;is the tribute that vice pays to virtue, and we always need to 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;remember there are two ways to get out of a double standard. One 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;is to repent of the sin, and the other is to drop the pretence of 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;virtue. We are in the course of pursuing the latter, and it will 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;not bring enlightenment. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;If it is true that marriage is nothing more than a "tax break," 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;and is no longer a sacred institution, then we are not just 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;talking about homosexual unions. We are also talking about 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;polygamy, as long as more than two can physically fit into the 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;privacy of the bedroom. What kind of sexual unions will have to 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;be permitted as soon as the courts learn the rudiments of logic? 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;He who says A must say B. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;And while we are on the subject of keeping the government out of 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;the bedroom, why is it, when I built my house, the government 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;wanted to tell me how far apart the sheetrock screws had to be in 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;the bedroom, how the electric outlets had to be placed, how big 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;the windows had to be, and so on, ad nauseam. Government out of 
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