[Vision2020] The Bleeding Hasn't Stopped...
Dale Courtney
dale@courtneys.us
Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:03:11 -0700
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Mike,=20
=20
Thanks for the note, however, I never suggested that "families/students =
left
MSD to find other educational alternatives in the area." I've suggested
just the opposite: people are moving to Moscow and not putting their =
kids in
the government schools.=20
=20
MSD states: "The information we have seems to indicate that families =
with
children are leaving the area in larger numbers than other families with
children are coming to Moscow."=20
=20
That statement is factually incorrect (when I was a kid, we called it a =
lie;
but that's politically incorrect these days -- we cannot say that
politicians are lying, unless they are not in our own Party).
=20
I will make my challenge again -- I'd like anyone to show me that the
statement above by MSD is factually correct.=20
=20
Finally, I'd like to know who it was that did the statistical =
projections
for MSD concerning student projections for the next 5 years. I'd like to
know where they got their data (and college degree). If anyone knows, =
I'd
sure like a name and phone number.=20
=20
Best,
Dale Courtney
-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] =
On
Behalf Of Mike Curley
Sent: Tuesday, 15 April, 2003 13:27
To: vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] The Bleeding Hasn't Stopped...
Mr. Courtney:
I have retained below two paragraphs of your post regarding MSD.
Unfortunately you either didn't read very carefully or are knowingly
comparing doughnuts to doorknobs. I am not quarreling with whatever your
ultimate point may be, simply that you are using an inapposite =
statistical
comparison to support it.
The MSD website states that the chart shows "where the students who left =
our
elementary school went." That information was gathered early last year =
when
the community and district were discussing whether a levy increase =
should be
submitted to a vote. It was primarily in response to a =
statement/argument
that basically suggested MSD was losing students INTRA-CITY to other
educational opportunities. When students transfer from MSD, the district
usual receives a records request from the student's new district or =
school
(not from home schoolers usually). Therefore, much of the data presented
comes from that feedback from the new school or district.=20
Further, that information is in no way inconsistent with your contention
that people who are moving to the Moscow area are choosing other =
educational
alternatives. I did not see, and do not think you will find, any =
statement
by MSD administration that argues that the percentage of "new kids" to =
the
area who attend MSD is as high as it was in 1990.
Again, I am not making any claims to educational superiority of one
institution over another (for your kids, my kids, or all kids), but I do =
not
think you will find any study that has been done that shows that =
families
new to the area have predominantly chosen other institutions because =
they
investigated and found MSD to be inferior. If you were to conduct that =
study
under appropriate scientific principles, you MIGHT find that to be the
ultimate conclusion. Or you might find that most of those who chose
alternatives had a predisposition to do so. Some (maybe many?) moved to =
the
area primarily so that they could send their children to Logos, or one =
of
the only charter schools in the state, or had always home schooled their
children and were disinclined to send their children to public schools
regardless of how highly rated they might be.
So, again, I argue not with whatever your ultimate conclusion may be, =
but
simply that you cannot use the statistics you presented to suggest that =
the
majority of families/students LEFT the MSD to find other educational
alternatives IN THE AREA.
It is certainly true that if a family leaves the area and accordingly
removes its children from MSD and that family is "replaced" by a family =
of
home-schooled children (or children who attend a private school), =
enrollment
will decline. I suspect it would be a much tougher study to determine =
the
"net" demographics of the families to leave and enter MSD boundaries =
within
the next few years.
Mike Curley
I want to throw more cold water on their contention
(http://www.sd281.k12.id.us/GeneralInformation/files/mov emen
t.pdf) that families with children are leaving the area.
That's a bunch of hooey and they know it. All the census
bureau statistics show that the number of school-aged
children in the MSD region has increased by 20 percent! They
were talking about all the local housing that's being built
for families -- yet the number of kids continues to decline.
I would like to see MSD school board get their heads out of
the sand and acknowledge what the census statistics
definitively show: - First, people are moving to Moscow and
not putting their kids in the government schools. - Second,
that in 1990 private-school students made up 12.7 % of
Moscow's total K-12 enrollment; those private/homeschoolers
made up 20% in the 2000 census.
_____________________________________________________ List services made
available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse
since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////=20
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<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
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<DIV><SPAN class=3D675384820-15042003><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Mike,=20
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D675384820-15042003><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D675384820-15042003><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Thanks for =
the note,=20
however, I <U>never</U> suggested that "families/students left MSD to =
find other=20
educational alternatives in the area." I've suggested just the =
opposite:=20
<FONT color=3D#000000><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; =
mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">people=20
are moving to </SPAN><?xml:namespace prefix =3D st1 ns =3D=20
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
/><st1:City><st1:place><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; =
mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: =
AR-SA">Moscow</SPAN></st1:place></st1:City></FONT><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; =
mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff> and not putting their kids in the government =
schools.</FONT>=20
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D675384820-15042003><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D675384820-15042003><FONT color=3D#0000ff>MSD states:=20
"</FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT color=3D#800000>The information we =
have seems=20
to<SPAN class=3D675384820-15042003> </SPAN>indicate that families with =
children=20
are leaving the area in larger numbers than<SPAN =
class=3D675384820-15042003>=20
</SPAN>other families with children are coming to Moscow.</FONT><SPAN=20
class=3D675384820-15042003>" </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D675384820-15042003><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
class=3D675384820-15042003></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D675384820-15042003><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
class=3D675384820-15042003>That statement is factually incorrect (when I =
was a=20
kid, we called it a lie; but that's politically incorrect these days -- =
we=20
cannot say that politicians are lying, unless they are not in our own=20
Party).</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D675384820-15042003><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
class=3D675384820-15042003></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D675384820-15042003><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
class=3D675384820-15042003>I will make my challenge again -- I'd like =
anyone to=20
show me that the statement above by MSD is factually correct.=20
</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D675384820-15042003><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
class=3D675384820-15042003></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D675384820-15042003><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
class=3D675384820-15042003>Finally, I'd like to know who it was that did =
the=20
statistical projections for MSD concerning student projections for the =
next 5=20
years. I'd like to know where they got their data (and college degree). =
If=20
anyone knows, I'd sure like a name and phone number. =
</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D675384820-15042003><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
class=3D675384820-15042003></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D675384820-15042003><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
class=3D675384820-15042003>Best,</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D675384820-15042003><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
class=3D675384820-15042003>Dale Courtney</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] <B>On =
Behalf=20
Of </B>Mike Curley<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, 15 April, 2003 =
13:27<BR><B>To:</B>=20
vision2020@moscow.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Vision2020] The Bleeding =
Hasn't=20
Stopped...<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>Mr. Courtney:<BR><BR>I have retained =
below two=20
paragraphs of your post regarding MSD. Unfortunately you either didn't =
read=20
very carefully or are knowingly comparing doughnuts to doorknobs. I am =
not=20
quarreling with whatever your ultimate point may be, simply that you =
are using=20
an inapposite statistical comparison to support it.<BR><BR>The MSD =
website=20
states that the chart shows "where the students who left our =
elementary school=20
went." That information was gathered early last year when the =
community and=20
district were discussing whether a levy increase should be submitted =
to a=20
vote. It was primarily in response to a statement/argument that =
basically=20
suggested MSD was losing students INTRA-CITY to other educational=20
opportunities. When students transfer from MSD, the district usual =
receives a=20
records request from the student's new district or school (not from =
home=20
schoolers usually). Therefore, much of the data presented comes from =
that=20
feedback from the new school or district. <BR><BR>Further, that =
information is=20
in no way inconsistent with your contention that people who are moving =
to the=20
Moscow area are choosing other educational alternatives. I did not =
see, and do=20
not think you will find, any statement by MSD administration that =
argues that=20
the percentage of "new kids" to the area who attend MSD is as high as =
it was=20
in 1990.<BR><BR>Again, I am not making any claims to educational =
superiority=20
of one institution over another (for your kids, my kids, or all kids), =
but I=20
do not think you will find any study that has been done that shows =
that=20
families new to the area have predominantly chosen other institutions =
because=20
they investigated and found MSD to be inferior. If you were to conduct =
that=20
study under appropriate scientific principles, you MIGHT find that to =
be the=20
ultimate conclusion. Or you might find that most of those who chose=20
alternatives had a predisposition to do so. Some (maybe many?) moved =
to the=20
area primarily so that they could send their children to Logos, or one =
of the=20
only charter schools in the state, or had always home schooled their =
children=20
and were disinclined to send their children to public schools =
regardless of=20
how highly rated they might be.<BR><BR>So, again, I argue not with =
whatever=20
your ultimate conclusion may be, but simply that you cannot use the =
statistics=20
you presented to suggest that the majority of families/students LEFT =
the MSD=20
to find other educational alternatives IN THE AREA.<BR><BR>It is =
certainly=20
true that if a family leaves the area and accordingly removes its =
children=20
from MSD and that family is "replaced" by a family of home-schooled =
children=20
(or children who attend a private school), enrollment will decline. I =
suspect=20
it would be a much tougher study to determine the "net" demographics =
of the=20
families to leave and enter MSD boundaries within the next few=20
years.<BR><BR>Mike Curley<BR><BR><BR><BR><?/color>I want to throw more =
cold=20
water on their=20
contention<BR>(http://www.sd281.k12.id.us/GeneralInformation/files/mov =
emen<BR>t.pdf) that families with children are leaving the =
area.<BR>That's a=20
bunch of hooey and they know it. All the census<BR>bureau statistics =
show that=20
the number of school-aged<BR>children in the MSD region has increased =
by 20=20
percent! They<BR>were talking about all the local housing that's being =
built<BR>for families -- yet the number of kids continues to=20
decline.<BR><BR><BR>I would like to see MSD school board get their =
heads out=20
of<BR>the sand and acknowledge what the census =
statistics<BR>definitively=20
show: - First, people are moving to Moscow and<BR>not putting their =
kids in=20
the government schools. - Second,<BR>that in 1990 private-school =
students made=20
up 12.7 % of<BR>Moscow's total K-12 enrollment; those=20
private/homeschoolers<BR>made up 20% in the 2000=20
census.<BR>_____________________________________________________ List =
services=20
made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the =
Palouse=20
since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////=20
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