[WSBARP] Suicide disclosure

Annie Fitzsimmons atfitz at comcast.net
Sat Jun 24 08:16:44 PDT 2023 

Good Morning.  I know nothing about the new topic of discussion but I do not agree with the consensus regarding suicide disclosure.  I am not aware of anything in statutory or common law expressly excusing a seller from disclosing suicide or other death in the sale of real estate.  I believe it will be an issue of first impression the first time an appellate court hears the issue.
 
RCW 18.86.010, the Agency Law, defines "Material Fact" to exclude suicide or other death from disclosures that real estate brokers are required to make.  However, the Seller Disclosure Act, RCW 64.06, mandates the questions a seller must answer in disclosing the condition of the property.  The final question on the residential form asks if there are any other "material defects" a buyer should know.  The Legislature did not use the same term ("Material Facts") as used in the Agency Law and did not refer back to RCW 18.86 in defining the information that a seller must give buyer.  
 
I am not aware of any other common or statutory law limiting a seller's obligation to disclose.  Based on that, I have always concluded that while the Legislature has addressed the issue for real estate brokers, Washington law has not provided an answer as to seller's obligation.
 
There are certainly arguments to be made in defense of a seller not having to disclose ... the Legislature could have asked that question directly on Form 17 if they wanted the disclosure, for example.  Similarly, however, there are arguments favoring seller making the disclosure ... the Legislature could easily have referred back to the definition of "Material Fact" had the Legislature intended to give seller the same disclosure obligation as brokers.  Consequently, I believe the question is ripe for litigation and if your advice to your seller client is that they are absolutely excused from disclosing suicide or other death in the property, I think you put yourself at risk in resolution of the issue.
 
My two cents ...
 
-- Annie Fitzsimmons
 

Annette T. Fitzsimmons P.S.
P.O. Box 430
Belfair, WA 98528

> On 06/24/2023 7:32 AM MDT Roger Hawkes <roger at skyvalleylawyers.com> wrote:
>  
>  
> 
> 😊I can’t say I now understand it.  Couldn’t then either😊
> 
> Harry Cross was my prof.
> 
>  
> 
> From: wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> On Behalf Of Joshua Grant
> Sent: Friday, June 23, 2023 8:12 PM
> To: WSBA Real Property Listserv <wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> Subject: Re: [WSBARP] Suicide disclosure
> 
>  
> 
> I retired  as a county judge… before that when I would get a law student Rule 9… , and the supervising attorney was in the back row, I would say: “Welcome to Lincoln County counsel, I see this is your first time here.. we have a local rule that you must pass a test to practice here… and it is easy, only one question, define the term incorporeal hereditament”.. lawyer in back seat is trying not to laugh out loud…  never had more than a frozen gaze,..  waiting for “well in real property law there is this bundle of sticks….” Never happened.. then I said “oh o.k. we can proceed”.
> 
> So I was delighted to see this response.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
> 
> Josh
> 
> Joshua F. Grant
> 
> P. O. Box 619
> Wilbur, WA 99185
> 509 647 5578
> 
> jgrant at advocateslg.com mailto:jgrant at advocateslg.com
> 
>  
> 
> From: wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> On Behalf Of Roger Hawkes
> Sent: Friday, June 23, 2023 1:50 PM
> To: WSBA Real Property Listserv <wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com mailto:wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> Subject: Re: [WSBARP] Suicide disclosure
> 
>  
> 
> And I thought ‘incorporeal hereditaments’ was the real hoot😊
> 
>  
> 
> From: wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> On Behalf Of Lynn Clare
> Sent: Friday, June 23, 2023 1:26 PM
> To: WSBA Real Property Listserv <wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com mailto:wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> Subject: Re: [WSBARP] Suicide disclosure
> 
>  
> 
> There was a New York case we read in law school where a party sold a "haunted" B and B that had been on some kind of advertised ghost tour. The buyers didn't know about it until later and sued. The court held that "having persistently held out the house as haunted, Sellers are estopped from claiming that it isn't. The house is, as a matter of law, haunted."
> 
>  
> 
> It was a hoot.
> 
>  
> 
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 12:40 PM Inge Fordham <inge at fordhamlegal.com mailto:inge at fordhamlegal.com> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > That’s one I haven’t heard of … failure to disclose ghost haunting property.  Thanks for this gem.  😊
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > [uc%3fexport=download&id=1W3rEcChy0_E0cCfV5up02mkhwnL6eWIs&revid=0B4P5JoIHdbFaR29EbHlRWHFseFV5STZpSUVGeUNPWldkVDFVPQ]
> > 
> > Inge A. Fordham | Attorney
> > 
> > Fordham Law, PLLC
> > 
> > 3218 Sixth Avenue | Tacoma, WA 98406
> > 
> > Office: (253) 348-2657 | Mobile: (206) 778-3131
> > 
> > www.fordhamlegal.com https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.fordhamlegal.com&c=E,1,9y3sU0VxD0ILsiIwmyf6l06btj4poQjjoTcOOgm_fIAhC_dQIO34YLXs7h0h_Zy34kvzPIe4LBUb0EsrIRxDTpTq2GOQUUneTgVka792FulY&typo=1
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> >  
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> > From: wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> on behalf of Bryce Dille <Bryce at dillelaw.com mailto:Bryce at dillelaw.com>
> > Date: Friday, June 23, 2023 at 11:57 AM
> > To: WSBA Real Property Listserv <wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com mailto:wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> > Subject: Re: [WSBARP] Suicide disclosure
> > 
> > You are correct years ago I represented the Realtor who sold a house where owners mother had committed suicide which wasn’t disclosed and the buyer sued for non disclosure saying the Ghost of the deceased was still in the property crt dismissed saying no requirement of disclosure
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Bryce H. Dille
> > 
> > Dille Law, PLLC
> > 
> > 2010 Caton Way SW Ste. 101
> > 
> > Olympia, WA 98502
> > 
> > Office: 360-350-0270
> > 
> > Cell: 253-579-5561
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > [R_Alan_Swanson-WH-200]
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> > ** Please note that I use the dictation feature of my iPhone and that sometimes everything I say does not get properly translated**
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> > Business Entity Creation and Management, Business, Government and Tax Law, Real Estate and Land Use, Residential, Commercial and Condominium Development Real Estate and Commercial Transactions & Closings, Including Performing Services as IRS Section 1031 Exchange Facilitator Estate Planning, including Wills and Trusts, and Probate Administration Representation Homeowners/Condominium Association Real Estate Developments Real Property Foreclosures and Forfeitures.
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> >  
> > 
> > From: wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> On Behalf Of Inge Fordham
> > Sent: Friday, June 23, 2023 11:42 AM
> > To: WSBA Real Property Listserv <wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com mailto:wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> > Subject: Re: [WSBARP] Suicide disclosure
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > My understanding is that in the State of Washington, sellers are not required to disclose a death on the property (whether by murder, suicide, etc.).
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > [uc%3fexport=download&id=1W3rEcChy0_E0cCfV5up02mkhwnL6eWIs&revid=0B4P5JoIHdbFaR29EbHlRWHFseFV5STZpSUVGeUNPWldkVDFVPQ]
> > 
> > Inge A. Fordham | Attorney
> > 
> > Fordham Law, PLLC
> > 
> > 3218 Sixth Avenue | Tacoma, WA 98406
> > 
> > Office: (253) 348-2657 | Mobile: (206) 778-3131
> > 
> > www.fordhamlegal.com https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2furldefense.proofpoint.com%2fv2%2furl%3fu%3dhttp-3A__www.fordhamlegal.com%26d%3dDwMF-g%26c%3deuGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM%26r%3dZjJT61sMYHYXW1a7W0qvaz-zO3o_Ea2RRxXvW5Yr3-0%26m%3dfzLGq-3Qi0oo0XE1ovCTurcWqqbq74ryLL9wHR641qK4U3LefRpfpL8jrtoOV6V2%26s%3dMHsR4iY75HAS5QwIOAteetSLV9hkKsqOpUnJ-Ffqyx8%26e%3d&c=E,1,aJqUJ1Vi1pCT1C3QdGayXxLu-i12qLc--Qce9OGgSA30VJu5AVfBncA7idipzW6E1ThlZ98KPiyVzXItAX8GTUXa0JsflV2fnt3TpvlQFS3lHkRhAbXDirA,&typo=1
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> > 
> >  
> > 
> > From: wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com mailto:wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> on behalf of Craig Gourley <craig at glgmail.com mailto:craig at glgmail.com>
> > Date: Friday, June 23, 2023 at 11:35 AM
> > To: WSBA Real Property Listserv <wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com mailto:wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> > Subject: [WSBARP] Suicide disclosure
> > 
> > Listmates, does anyone know what the seller’s disclosure requirement ( if any) is when someone has committed suicide in a home?  Thanks, Craig
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > GOURLEY LAW GROUP
> > 
> > THE EXCHANGE CONNECTION
> > 
> > SNOHOMISH ESCROW
> > 
> > P.O. Box 1091
> > 
> > Snohomish, WA 98291
> > 
> > PH:  (360) 568-5065 (800) 291-8401
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> > Fax: (360) 568-8092
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