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Good Morning. I know nothing about the new topic of discussion but I do not agree with the consensus regarding suicide disclosure. I am not aware of anything in statutory or common law expressly excusing a seller from disclosing suicide or other death in the sale of real estate. I believe it will be an issue of first impression the first time an appellate court hears the issue.
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RCW 18.86.010, the Agency Law, defines "Material Fact" to exclude suicide or other death from disclosures that real estate brokers are required to make. However, the Seller Disclosure Act, RCW 64.06, mandates the questions a seller must answer in disclosing the condition of the property. The final question on the residential form asks if there are any other "material defects" a buyer should know. The Legislature did not use the same term ("Material Facts") as used in the Agency Law and did not refer back to RCW 18.86 in defining the information that a seller must give buyer.
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I am not aware of any other common or statutory law limiting a seller's obligation to disclose. Based on that, I have always concluded that while the Legislature has addressed the issue for real estate brokers, Washington law has not provided an answer as to seller's obligation.
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There are certainly arguments to be made in defense of a seller not having to disclose ... the Legislature could have asked that question directly on Form 17 if they wanted the disclosure, for example. Similarly, however, there are arguments favoring seller making the disclosure ... the Legislature could easily have referred back to the definition of "Material Fact" had the Legislature intended to give seller the same disclosure obligation as brokers. Consequently, I believe the question is ripe for litigation and if your advice to your seller client is that they are absolutely excused from disclosing suicide or other death in the property, I think you put yourself at risk in resolution of the issue.
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My two cents ...
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-- Annie Fitzsimmons
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<p>Annette T. Fitzsimmons P.S.<br>P.O. Box 430<br>Belfair, WA 98528</p>
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On 06/24/2023 7:32 AM MDT Roger Hawkes <roger@skyvalleylawyers.com> wrote:
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Segoe UI Emoji',sans-serif;">š</span>I canāt say I now understand it. Couldnāt then either<span style="font-family: 'Segoe UI Emoji',sans-serif;">š</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Harry Cross was my prof.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><strong>From:</strong> wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com> <strong>On Behalf Of </strong>Joshua Grant<br><strong>Sent:</strong> Friday, June 23, 2023 8:12 PM<br><strong>To:</strong> WSBA Real Property Listserv <wsbarp@lists.wsbarppt.com><br><strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [WSBARP] Suicide disclosure</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="OLE_LINK1"></a><a name="OLE_LINK2"></a><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;">I retired as a county judgeā¦ before that when I would get a law student Rule 9ā¦ , and the supervising attorney was in the back row, I would say: āWelcome to Lincoln County counsel, I see this is your first time here.. we have a local rule that you must pass a test to practice hereā¦ and it is easy, only one question, define the term incorporeal hereditamentā.. lawyer in back seat is trying not to laugh out loudā¦ never had more than a frozen gaze,.. waiting for āwell in real property law there is this bundle of sticksā¦.ā Never happened.. then I said āoh o.k. we can proceedā.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;">So I was delighted to see this response.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;">Josh</span></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><strong><span style="font-size: 18.0pt; color: #004080;">Joshua F. Grant</span></strong></span></span><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; color: #004080;"><br></span></span></span><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; color: black;"><img id="Picture_x0020_4" style="width: 1.7261in; height: .3511in;" src="cid:image001.png@01D9A665.A6B81590" width="166" height="34"></span></span></span><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;"><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; color: black;"><br></span><span style="color: #004080;">P. O. Box 619<br>Wilbur, WA 99185<br>509 647 5578</span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:jgrant@advocateslg.com"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK2;"><span style="mso-bookmark: OLE_LINK1;">jgrant@advocateslg.com</span></span></a></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><strong>From:</strong> <a href="mailto:wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com"> wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>> <strong>On Behalf Of </strong>Roger Hawkes<br><strong>Sent:</strong> Friday, June 23, 2023 1:50 PM<br><strong>To:</strong> WSBA Real Property Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbarp@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbarp@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br><strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [WSBARP] Suicide disclosure</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">And I thought āincorporeal hereditamentsā was the real hoot<span style="font-family: 'Segoe UI Emoji',sans-serif;">š</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><strong>From:</strong> <a href="mailto:wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com"> wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>> <strong>On Behalf Of </strong>Lynn Clare<br><strong>Sent:</strong> Friday, June 23, 2023 1:26 PM<br><strong>To:</strong> WSBA Real Property Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbarp@lists.wsbarppt.com">wsbarp@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br><strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [WSBARP] Suicide disclosure</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif;">There was a New York case we read in law school where a party sold a "haunted" B and B that had been on some kind of advertised ghost tour. The buyers didn't know about it until later and sued. The court held that "having persistently held out the house as haunted, Sellers are estopped from claiming that it isn't. The house is, as a matter of law, haunted."</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Arial',sans-serif;">It was a hoot.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 12:40āÆPM Inge Fordham <<a href="mailto:inge@fordhamlegal.com">inge@fordhamlegal.com</a>> wrote:</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;">Thatās one I havenāt heard of ā¦ failure to disclose ghost haunting property. Thanks for this gem. <span style="font-family: 'Segoe UI Emoji',sans-serif;">š</span></p>
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<td style="width: 427.25pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top" width="570"> <p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; margin-bottom: 3.0pt;"><strong><span style="font-size: 13.0pt; font-family: 'Cambria',serif; color: #203864;">Inge A. Fordham | Attorney</span></strong></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; margin-bottom: 3.0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Cambria',serif; color: black;">Fordham Law, PLLC</span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; margin-bottom: 3.0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Cambria',serif; color: black;">3218 Sixth Avenue | Tacoma, WA 98406</span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; margin-bottom: 3.0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Cambria',serif; color: black;">Office: (253) 348-2657 | Mobile: (206) 778-3131</span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; margin-bottom: 3.0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Cambria',serif; color: black;"><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.fordhamlegal.com&c=E,1,9y3sU0VxD0ILsiIwmyf6l06btj4poQjjoTcOOgm_fIAhC_dQIO34YLXs7h0h_Zy34kvzPIe4LBUb0EsrIRxDTpTq2GOQUUneTgVka792FulY&typo=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener">www.fordhamlegal.com</a></span></p> </td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; margin-bottom: 12.0pt;"><strong><span style="font-size: 12.0pt; color: black;">From: </span></strong><span style="font-size: 12.0pt; color: black;"><a href="mailto:wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>> on behalf of Bryce Dille <<a href="mailto:Bryce@dillelaw.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Bryce@dillelaw.com</a>><br><strong>Date: </strong>Friday, June 23, 2023 at 11:57 AM<br><strong>To: </strong>WSBA Real Property Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbarp@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">wsbarp@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br><strong>Subject: </strong>Re: [WSBARP] Suicide disclosure</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;">You are correct years ago I represented the Realtor who sold a house where owners mother had committed suicide which wasnāt disclosed and the buyer sued for non disclosure saying the Ghost of the deceased was still in the property crt dismissed saying no requirement of disclosure</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;">Bryce H. Dille</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;">Dille Law, PLLC</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;">2010 Caton Way SW Ste. 101</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;">Olympia, WA 98502</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;">Cell: 253-579-5561</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;"><strong>From:</strong> <a href="mailto:wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>> <strong>On Behalf Of </strong>Inge Fordham<br><strong>Sent:</strong> Friday, June 23, 2023 11:42 AM<br><strong>To:</strong> WSBA Real Property Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbarp@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">wsbarp@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br><strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [WSBARP] Suicide disclosure</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;">My understanding is that in the State of Washington, sellers are not required to disclose a death on the property (whether by murder, suicide, etc.).</p>
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<td style="width: 427.25pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;" valign="top" width="570"> <p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; margin-bottom: 3.0pt;"><strong><span style="font-size: 13.0pt; font-family: 'Cambria',serif; color: #203864;">Inge A. Fordham | Attorney</span></strong></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; margin-bottom: 3.0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Cambria',serif; color: black;">Fordham Law, PLLC</span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; margin-bottom: 3.0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Cambria',serif; color: black;">3218 Sixth Avenue | Tacoma, WA 98406</span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; margin-bottom: 3.0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Cambria',serif; color: black;">Office: (253) 348-2657 | Mobile: (206) 778-3131</span></p> <p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; margin-bottom: 3.0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Cambria',serif; color: black;"><a href="https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2furldefense.proofpoint.com%2fv2%2furl%3fu%3dhttp-3A__www.fordhamlegal.com%26d%3dDwMF-g%26c%3deuGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM%26r%3dZjJT61sMYHYXW1a7W0qvaz-zO3o_Ea2RRxXvW5Yr3-0%26m%3dfzLGq-3Qi0oo0XE1ovCTurcWqqbq74ryLL9wHR641qK4U3LefRpfpL8jrtoOV6V2%26s%3dMHsR4iY75HAS5QwIOAteetSLV9hkKsqOpUnJ-Ffqyx8%26e%3d&c=E,1,aJqUJ1Vi1pCT1C3QdGayXxLu-i12qLc--Qce9OGgSA30VJu5AVfBncA7idipzW6E1ThlZ98KPiyVzXItAX8GTUXa0JsflV2fnt3TpvlQFS3lHkRhAbXDirA,&typo=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener">www.fordhamlegal.com</a></span></p> </td>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; margin-bottom: 12.0pt;"><strong><span style="font-size: 12.0pt; color: black;">From: </span></strong><span style="font-size: 12.0pt; color: black;"><a href="mailto:wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>> on behalf of Craig Gourley <<a href="mailto:craig@glgmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">craig@glgmail.com</a>><br><strong>Date: </strong>Friday, June 23, 2023 at 11:35 AM<br><strong>To: </strong>WSBA Real Property Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbarp@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank" rel="noopener">wsbarp@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br><strong>Subject: </strong>[WSBARP] Suicide disclosure</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;">Listmates, does anyone know what the sellerās disclosure requirement ( if any) is when someone has committed suicide in a home? Thanks, Craig</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;"><strong>GOURLEY LAW GROUP</strong></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;"><strong>THE EXCHANGE CONNECTION</strong></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;"><strong>SNOHOMISH ESCROW </strong></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;">P.O. Box 1091</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;">Snohomish, WA 98291</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;">PH: (360) 568-5065 (800) 291-8401</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;">Fax: (360) 568-8092</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto;">CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This electronic mail transmission may contain legally privileged, confidential information belonging to the sender. The information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking any action based on the contents of this electronic mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this electronic mail in error, please contact sender and delete all copies.</p>
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</div> ***Disclaimer: Please note that RPPT listserv participation is not restricted to practicing attorneys and may include non-practicing attorneys, law students, professionals working in related fields, and others.***
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