[WSBARP] Update on Upcoming Changes to the Real Property and the Probate & Trust Listservs

[Michael Safren]

Hi Jim:

Thanks for your question.  As a member of the RPPT section, you will remain
subscribed to the listservs.  You may need to re-validate the subscription
by visiting the RPPT website (wsbarppt.com), going to the listserv tab
which will now require you to enter your member login information, and
clicking a button to re-validate once the changes are made.

I'll have more details on the re-validation process shortly.

Kind regards,
Michael Safren
Web Editor, RPPT section

On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 9:45 AM Jim Doran <jim at doranlegal.com> wrote:

> After all this hoopla I just want to make sure that as a RPPT section
> member I don't have to do anything now to remain on and use the listserve,
> do I?
> James R. Doran
> Attorney at Law
> 100 E. Pine Street -  Suite 205
> Bellingham, WA 98225
> (360)393-9506
> jim at doranlegal.com
> www.doranlegal.com
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 11:25 AM Annie Fitzsimmons <atfitz at comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Recall that RPPT is a WSBA section.  We only exist, by and through WSBA.
>> WSBA incurs costs to maintain all of the sections such as administrative
>> support, provision of facilities for meetings and CLEs and technological
>> support.  From every section member's dues, regardless of the section, WSBA
>> charges the section $18.75.  Sections are free to increase the cost of
>> membership but RPPT has chosen not to increase our section membership fee
>> for many years.  Because of the support of our members and the quality CLEs
>> we provide, our section generates revenue that other sections are unable to
>> create and thus, we are not dependent on dues alone to provide programming.
>>
>>
>> The listserv is just one of many section benefits provided to our
>> members.  We provide our quarterly newsletter, four 1-day CLEs annually as
>> well as the three day midyear CLE and conference, mentoring opportunities,
>> legislative review and testimony, the RPPT website that houses archived
>> newsletters and other benefits as well.  Until now, joining the listserv
>> has truly been free to anybody who wanted to join.  Other member benefits,
>> however, were available only through section membership.  For example,
>> access to our Newsletter has been provided only as a member benefit.
>>
>>
>> With this change in section policy, we are not "charging for access to
>> the listserv."  Instead, we are preserving access to the listserv as one of
>> the benefits of section membership.  It is easy to see how the change is
>> perceived as a charge for accessing the listserv if accessing the listserv
>> is the only section benefit you consume. But if you enjoy the other
>> benefits of section membership, then $25 is the cost of that membership,
>> and not solely the cost of joining the listserv.  Likewise, the $18.75 paid
>> to WSBA, from each section member's dues, is not paid solely to fund the
>> listserv but rather, to fund all of the operations WSBA provides to all of
>> the sections.
>>
>>
>> I hope this explanation helps.  Again, if you want to discuss any of this
>> further, I invite you to respond to the listserv or contact me off the list
>> at: atfitz at comcast.net.
>>
>>
>> Thanks - Annie
>>
>>
>> Annette T. Fitzsimmons P.S.
>> P.O. Box 65578
>> Tacoma, WA 98464
>> 253-460-2988/866-290-8362(fax)
>>
>> On January 18, 2019 at 8:02 AM "Wheeler, Doug" <DWheeler at viresorts.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Why is $18.75 paid to WSBA?  How can it possibly cost that much to
>> maintain a listserv?  I am also a member of the CondoLawyers listserv,
>> which is free.  I always assumed the WSBA Real Property listserv also was
>> free, even it sponsored by WSBA.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Doug Wheeler *
>>
>> Senior Counsel
>>
>> VI Resorts
>>
>> 1417 116th Avenue NE
>>
>> Bellevue, WA  98004
>>
>> Office:  (425) 454-3065, Ext. 1309
>>
>> Fax:  (425) 990-2655
>>
>> DWheeler at viresorts.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <
>> wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> *On Behalf Of *Annie Fitzsimmons
>> *Sent:* January 17, 2019 5:44 PM
>> *To:* WSBA Real Property Listserv <wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com>
>> *Subject:* Update on Upcoming Changes to the Real Property and the
>> Probate & Trust Listservs
>>
>>
>>
>> Good evening WSBA RP listserv!  Thank you for all the constructive
>> discussion today around listserv access.  I am sorry to be late to the
>> party but one of the services bestowed by our section is input to the
>> Legislature, as subject matter experts, on real estate bills.  If today is
>> any example, this is going to be a busy session!
>>
>>
>>
>> I am the current Chair of the Real Property, Probate and Trust section.
>> Thanks to others, the input I can add at this point, in this discussion, is
>> minimal.  Michael and Chris did a good job of explaining the executive
>> committee discussions that led to this decision.  As background these
>> discussions began last spring and then consumed significant aspects of two
>> EC meetings this past fall.  We tried to be as intentional and thoughtful
>> in our conclusions as possible.  If we missed the mark, we will return to
>> the discussion.  Our next EC meeting is February 8 and we will consider any
>> suggestions to create a better approach.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am sure you already know this, but let me be clear.  Our effort was not
>> intended, in any way, to limit participation by any lawyers, young or old.
>> RPPT exists by membership participation for the purpose of serving members
>> and the Washington legal community.  Our listserv is a rich tool because of
>> the diverse array of contributors.  That said, many on the Executive
>> Committee were surprised to learn that access to the WSBA RP listserv is
>> not limited to lawyers and law students.  Anybody can join the listserv.
>> Is that bad?  No, of course not.  But, we felt it was critical for members
>> of the listserv to be made aware of the fact that non-lawyers may not only
>> be on the listserv but may be asking for the legal advice and strategy that
>> listserv members are so generous to share.  In an era where giving
>> "cocktail party counsel" can create liability, listserv members should know
>> that the advice and strategy they are sharing may be consumed by
>> non-lawyers, pro se litigants and others.  Because of that, we chose to
>> inform listserv members of the fact that listserv membership is not
>> dependent upon WSBA membership with the notifications Michael has
>> described.
>>
>>
>>
>> Additionally, we decided that while $25 is not a huge sum, joining the
>> section and paying the section dues requires, at least, nominal commitment
>> and may prevent casual consumption of legal counsel by non lawyers who drop
>> in when needing assistance in their own case. Even so, it is important to
>> remember to treat discussion on this listserv as public commentary.
>>
>>
>>
>> With respect to the $25 fee, please know that this is not a money maker
>> for the section.  From the $25, $18.75 goes to WSBA.  If we reduce the fee
>> to $10 for some members, the section will literally pay $8.75 to WSBA for
>> that member to join.  Maybe we want to create an emeritus status for
>> retired lawyers and supplement their membership.  That is something we can
>> discuss at the EC.  Please know, however, that there are more tentacles to
>> this decision than simply deciding.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you have ideas, other than those already discussed today, that you
>> would like us to consider, please feel free to respond to the listserv or
>> email me privately, if you prefer: atfitz at comcast.net.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you!  Annie
>>
>>
>>
>> Annette T. Fitzsimmons P.S.
>> P.O. Box 65578
>> Tacoma, WA 98464
>> 253-460-2988/866-290-8362(fax)
>>
>> On January 17, 2019 at 4:32 PM Eric Nelsen <Eric at sayrelawoffices.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Michael --
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you for all the work you put into keeping this Section going.
>>
>>
>>
>> This probably already has been a conversation among the Section
>> governance folks, so I bet I'm late to the game here and I can only speak
>> for myself of course, but:
>>
>>
>>
>> I would happily pay higher annual section dues ($30 annually instead of
>> $25?) if I knew that the additional amount made it possible to (1) allow
>> inactive and retired attorneys, and title officers, to participate in the
>> listservs for free; and/or (2) add some security to our listserv to make it
>> a somewhat more private forum--messages and archives not accessible via
>> Google search, for example.
>>
>>
>>
>> Two bucks a month is already a ridiculous bargain for all the benefit I
>> receive from this forum, so $2.50 or $3 a month isn't going to drive me
>> out.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think it makes sense for the Section to be free to people who are
>> retired and don't need questions answered or any benefit from other Section
>> services like CLEs, and are only sticking around because they want to
>> provide help and advice to colleagues who need it.
>>
>>
>>
>> I also think it helps our listserv conversation to know that one's
>> questions and answers are somewhat "private" among colleagues and
>> professionals, at least to the point of being protected from cursory
>> snooping. I certainly don't expect a major security effort and true privacy
>> online just isn't realistic, but I hope there might be some configuration
>> that is within reach of the Section budget and workload that would help.
>>
>>
>>
>> $0.02.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>>
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>
>>
>> Eric C. Nelsen
>>
>> SAYRE LAW OFFICES, PLLC
>>
>> 1417 31st Ave South
>>
>> Seattle WA  98144-3909
>>
>> phone 206-625-0092
>>
>> fax 206-625-9040
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com [
>> mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com
>> <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>] *On Behalf Of *Michael Safren
>> *Sent:* Thursday, January 17, 2019 11:11 AM
>> *To:* WSBA Real Property Listserv
>> *Cc:* WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv
>> *Subject:* Re: [WSBAPT] [WSBARP] Update on Upcoming Changes to the Real
>> Property and the Probate & Trust Listservs
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello Fellow Listserv Participants:
>>
>>
>>
>> I wanted to address some concerns that some of the listserv subscribers
>> and participants had about some of the changes.  Specifically, some
>> participants who are not members of the bar expressed concerns that the
>> upcoming changes would force them to take on the economic obligation to
>> join the bar.
>>
>>
>>
>> I want to assure you that this is not the case.  A person can enjoy
>> section membership in the WSBA RPPT section without necessarily being a
>> member of the WSBA.  I've posted the by-law below to assure those who have
>> these concerns that section membership is open to non-WSBA members.  Please
>> note that non-WSBA members would not be able to vote in section elections,
>> but would otherwise enjoy the other member benefits including: access to
>> the Quarterly Newsletter, access to electronic resources such as deskbook
>> sections, and access to the listservs.  Please see the by-laws below:
>>
>>
>>
>> 2 Subscribers. Any law student or other person may be enrolled as a
>> non-voting member (“subscriber”) upon request and payment of applicable
>> annual Section dues. Subscribers shall be entitled to receive the
>> Newsletter of the Section and shall have access to materials and pages
>> designated as "Members Pages" on the Section's web site, but subscribers
>> have no right to vote.
>>
>>
>>
>> 2.3 Dues. Dues shall be paid annually in advance. Any person who shall
>> fail to pay the annual dues shall cease to be a member or subscriber of the
>> Section, as applicable. Dues, which shall be determined by the executive
>> committee of the Section, and approved by the Bar Board of Governors, may
>> differ for voting members and subscribers. The dues for law students shall
>> be set according to the annual standard established by the Board of
>> Governors for law student section memberships.
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope this assuages the concerns of the non-member participants to the
>> listserv.  Please know that everyone's participation in the listserv is
>> valued.  The Executive Committee decided to implement these changes to the
>> listserv in part due to the resources necessary to maintain and operate the
>> listservs and to improve the overall experience for both the listservs and
>> for section members.
>>
>>
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Michael Safren
>>
>> Web Editor, RPPT section
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 10:05 AM RebeccaWiess <rwiess at foxinternet.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> The new policy means I and other retired attorneys will no longer be part
>> of this listserv. I occasionally post on historical evolution of real
>> property procedure or law, as a contribution to the education of those who
>> come after me, and payback for those who helped me as a newbie thirty-some
>> years ago. If institutional memory is valuable, then this listserv needs an
>> emeritus status to include folks like me. If us old folks are not of value,
>> then cut us out. And before you say “just join the section,” remember that
>> retaining bar membership after retiring means continuing to pay bar dues
>> and CLE costs. Once you do that, you get tempted to do some little piece of
>> practice, and then you should be insured as well, and that means needing
>> more income, and suddenly you are not retired anymore. Allowing
>> non-practicing members of the bar to join still means you are going to
>> eliminate some of your oldest and most experienced current members, because
>> they retired..
>>
>>
>>
>> Rebecca K. Wiess
>>
>> 421 24th Avenue East
>>
>> Seattle, WA  98112
>>
>> Phone 206 329-6638
>>
>> rwiess at foxinternet.net
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com [mailto:
>> wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com] *On Behalf Of *Michael Safren
>> *Sent:* Thursday, January 17, 2019 9:18 AM
>> *To:* WSBA Real Property Listserv; WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv
>> *Subject:* [WSBARP] Update on Upcoming Changes to the Real Property and
>> the Probate & Trust Listservs
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello Fellow Listservers:
>>
>>
>>
>> I wanted to provide another reminder to all listserv users of the
>> scheduled updates and upcoming changes to both the Real Property and
>> Probate & Trust Listservs.
>>
>>
>>
>> Starting February 1st, 2019, both listservs will only be accessible by
>> WSBA RPPT members. The RPPT Executive Committee decided after much
>> deliberation and input that the listservs should be an exclusive member
>> benefit.  Starting February 1st, 2019, you will need to login into the
>> www.wsbarppt.com website using your section login and password in order
>> to register for the listserv, access the listserv archives, and/or
>> unsubscribe to the listserv.
>>
>>
>>
>> Further, the Executive Committee has approved the adoption of new
>> guidelines, rules, and general etiquette for the listserv.  These will be
>> posted on www.wsbarppt,com under the listserv tab for all members to see
>> and review.
>>
>>
>>
>> Lastly, beginning on February 1st, 2019, all listserv postings will
>> contain a disclaimer in the footer reminding all that while the listservs
>> will be restricted to RPPT section members, not all section members are
>> practicing attorneys.  Section membership is open to law students,
>> non-practicing members of the bar, and even some non-attorney professionals
>> in related fields such as title officers, real estate agents, and escrow
>> agents.
>>
>>
>>
>> The Executive Committee believes that these changes will improve the
>> listserv experience for section members and deliver value to members as one
>> of many available section member benefits.
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope to make the transition to the members only listserv as seamless as
>> possible  If you experience any difficulty during the transition, please
>> feel free to email me and I will do my best to respond and assist you.
>>
>>
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Michael Safren
>>
>> Web Editor, RPPT Section
>>
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