[WSBARP] Update on Upcoming Changes to the Real Property and the Probate & Trust Listservs

[Jim Doran]

After all this hoopla I just want to make sure that as a RPPT section
member I don't have to do anything now to remain on and use the listserve,
do I?
James R. Doran
Attorney at Law
100 E. Pine Street -  Suite 205
Bellingham, WA 98225
(360)393-9506
jim at doranlegal.com
www.doranlegal.com


On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 11:25 AM Annie Fitzsimmons <atfitz at comcast.net>
wrote:

> Recall that RPPT is a WSBA section.  We only exist, by and through WSBA.
> WSBA incurs costs to maintain all of the sections such as administrative
> support, provision of facilities for meetings and CLEs and technological
> support.  From every section member's dues, regardless of the section, WSBA
> charges the section $18.75.  Sections are free to increase the cost of
> membership but RPPT has chosen not to increase our section membership fee
> for many years.  Because of the support of our members and the quality CLEs
> we provide, our section generates revenue that other sections are unable to
> create and thus, we are not dependent on dues alone to provide programming.
>
>
> The listserv is just one of many section benefits provided to our
> members.  We provide our quarterly newsletter, four 1-day CLEs annually as
> well as the three day midyear CLE and conference, mentoring opportunities,
> legislative review and testimony, the RPPT website that houses archived
> newsletters and other benefits as well.  Until now, joining the listserv
> has truly been free to anybody who wanted to join.  Other member benefits,
> however, were available only through section membership.  For example,
> access to our Newsletter has been provided only as a member benefit.
>
>
> With this change in section policy, we are not "charging for access to the
> listserv."  Instead, we are preserving access to the listserv as one of the
> benefits of section membership.  It is easy to see how the change is
> perceived as a charge for accessing the listserv if accessing the listserv
> is the only section benefit you consume. But if you enjoy the other
> benefits of section membership, then $25 is the cost of that membership,
> and not solely the cost of joining the listserv.  Likewise, the $18.75 paid
> to WSBA, from each section member's dues, is not paid solely to fund the
> listserv but rather, to fund all of the operations WSBA provides to all of
> the sections.
>
>
> I hope this explanation helps.  Again, if you want to discuss any of this
> further, I invite you to respond to the listserv or contact me off the list
> at: atfitz at comcast.net.
>
>
> Thanks - Annie
>
>
> Annette T. Fitzsimmons P.S.
> P.O. Box 65578
> Tacoma, WA 98464
> 253-460-2988/866-290-8362(fax)
>
> On January 18, 2019 at 8:02 AM "Wheeler, Doug" <DWheeler at viresorts.com>
> wrote:
>
> Why is $18.75 paid to WSBA?  How can it possibly cost that much to
> maintain a listserv?  I am also a member of the CondoLawyers listserv,
> which is free.  I always assumed the WSBA Real Property listserv also was
> free, even it sponsored by WSBA.
>
>
>
> *Doug Wheeler *
>
> Senior Counsel
>
> VI Resorts
>
> 1417 116th Avenue NE
>
> Bellevue, WA  98004
>
> Office:  (425) 454-3065, Ext. 1309
>
> Fax:  (425) 990-2655
>
> DWheeler at viresorts.com
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <
> wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> *On Behalf Of *Annie Fitzsimmons
> *Sent:* January 17, 2019 5:44 PM
> *To:* WSBA Real Property Listserv <wsbarp at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> *Subject:* Update on Upcoming Changes to the Real Property and the
> Probate & Trust Listservs
>
>
>
> Good evening WSBA RP listserv!  Thank you for all the constructive
> discussion today around listserv access.  I am sorry to be late to the
> party but one of the services bestowed by our section is input to the
> Legislature, as subject matter experts, on real estate bills.  If today is
> any example, this is going to be a busy session!
>
>
>
> I am the current Chair of the Real Property, Probate and Trust section.
> Thanks to others, the input I can add at this point, in this discussion, is
> minimal.  Michael and Chris did a good job of explaining the executive
> committee discussions that led to this decision.  As background these
> discussions began last spring and then consumed significant aspects of two
> EC meetings this past fall.  We tried to be as intentional and thoughtful
> in our conclusions as possible.  If we missed the mark, we will return to
> the discussion.  Our next EC meeting is February 8 and we will consider any
> suggestions to create a better approach.
>
>
>
> I am sure you already know this, but let me be clear.  Our effort was not
> intended, in any way, to limit participation by any lawyers, young or old.
> RPPT exists by membership participation for the purpose of serving members
> and the Washington legal community.  Our listserv is a rich tool because of
> the diverse array of contributors.  That said, many on the Executive
> Committee were surprised to learn that access to the WSBA RP listserv is
> not limited to lawyers and law students.  Anybody can join the listserv.
> Is that bad?  No, of course not.  But, we felt it was critical for members
> of the listserv to be made aware of the fact that non-lawyers may not only
> be on the listserv but may be asking for the legal advice and strategy that
> listserv members are so generous to share.  In an era where giving
> "cocktail party counsel" can create liability, listserv members should know
> that the advice and strategy they are sharing may be consumed by
> non-lawyers, pro se litigants and others.  Because of that, we chose to
> inform listserv members of the fact that listserv membership is not
> dependent upon WSBA membership with the notifications Michael has
> described.
>
>
>
> Additionally, we decided that while $25 is not a huge sum, joining the
> section and paying the section dues requires, at least, nominal commitment
> and may prevent casual consumption of legal counsel by non lawyers who drop
> in when needing assistance in their own case. Even so, it is important to
> remember to treat discussion on this listserv as public commentary.
>
>
>
> With respect to the $25 fee, please know that this is not a money maker
> for the section.  From the $25, $18.75 goes to WSBA.  If we reduce the fee
> to $10 for some members, the section will literally pay $8.75 to WSBA for
> that member to join.  Maybe we want to create an emeritus status for
> retired lawyers and supplement their membership.  That is something we can
> discuss at the EC.  Please know, however, that there are more tentacles to
> this decision than simply deciding.
>
>
>
> If you have ideas, other than those already discussed today, that you
> would like us to consider, please feel free to respond to the listserv or
> email me privately, if you prefer: atfitz at comcast.net.
>
>
>
> Thank you!  Annie
>
>
>
> Annette T. Fitzsimmons P.S.
> P.O. Box 65578
> Tacoma, WA 98464
> 253-460-2988/866-290-8362(fax)
>
> On January 17, 2019 at 4:32 PM Eric Nelsen <Eric at sayrelawoffices.com>
> wrote:
>
> Michael --
>
>
>
> Thank you for all the work you put into keeping this Section going.
>
>
>
> This probably already has been a conversation among the Section governance
> folks, so I bet I'm late to the game here and I can only speak for myself
> of course, but:
>
>
>
> I would happily pay higher annual section dues ($30 annually instead of
> $25?) if I knew that the additional amount made it possible to (1) allow
> inactive and retired attorneys, and title officers, to participate in the
> listservs for free; and/or (2) add some security to our listserv to make it
> a somewhat more private forum--messages and archives not accessible via
> Google search, for example.
>
>
>
> Two bucks a month is already a ridiculous bargain for all the benefit I
> receive from this forum, so $2.50 or $3 a month isn't going to drive me
> out.
>
>
>
> I think it makes sense for the Section to be free to people who are
> retired and don't need questions answered or any benefit from other Section
> services like CLEs, and are only sticking around because they want to
> provide help and advice to colleagues who need it.
>
>
>
> I also think it helps our listserv conversation to know that one's
> questions and answers are somewhat "private" among colleagues and
> professionals, at least to the point of being protected from cursory
> snooping. I certainly don't expect a major security effort and true privacy
> online just isn't realistic, but I hope there might be some configuration
> that is within reach of the Section budget and workload that would help.
>
>
>
> $0.02.
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> Eric C. Nelsen
>
> SAYRE LAW OFFICES, PLLC
>
> 1417 31st Ave South
>
> Seattle WA  98144-3909
>
> phone 206-625-0092
>
> fax 206-625-9040
>
>
>
> *From:* wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com [
> mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com
> <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>] *On Behalf Of *Michael Safren
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 17, 2019 11:11 AM
> *To:* WSBA Real Property Listserv
> *Cc:* WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv
> *Subject:* Re: [WSBAPT] [WSBARP] Update on Upcoming Changes to the Real
> Property and the Probate & Trust Listservs
>
>
>
> Hello Fellow Listserv Participants:
>
>
>
> I wanted to address some concerns that some of the listserv subscribers
> and participants had about some of the changes.  Specifically, some
> participants who are not members of the bar expressed concerns that the
> upcoming changes would force them to take on the economic obligation to
> join the bar.
>
>
>
> I want to assure you that this is not the case.  A person can enjoy
> section membership in the WSBA RPPT section without necessarily being a
> member of the WSBA.  I've posted the by-law below to assure those who have
> these concerns that section membership is open to non-WSBA members.  Please
> note that non-WSBA members would not be able to vote in section elections,
> but would otherwise enjoy the other member benefits including: access to
> the Quarterly Newsletter, access to electronic resources such as deskbook
> sections, and access to the listservs.  Please see the by-laws below:
>
>
>
> 2 Subscribers. Any law student or other person may be enrolled as a
> non-voting member (“subscriber”) upon request and payment of applicable
> annual Section dues. Subscribers shall be entitled to receive the
> Newsletter of the Section and shall have access to materials and pages
> designated as "Members Pages" on the Section's web site, but subscribers
> have no right to vote.
>
>
>
> 2.3 Dues. Dues shall be paid annually in advance. Any person who shall
> fail to pay the annual dues shall cease to be a member or subscriber of the
> Section, as applicable. Dues, which shall be determined by the executive
> committee of the Section, and approved by the Bar Board of Governors, may
> differ for voting members and subscribers. The dues for law students shall
> be set according to the annual standard established by the Board of
> Governors for law student section memberships.
>
>
>
> I hope this assuages the concerns of the non-member participants to the
> listserv.  Please know that everyone's participation in the listserv is
> valued.  The Executive Committee decided to implement these changes to the
> listserv in part due to the resources necessary to maintain and operate the
> listservs and to improve the overall experience for both the listservs and
> for section members.
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Michael Safren
>
> Web Editor, RPPT section
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 10:05 AM RebeccaWiess <rwiess at foxinternet.net>
> wrote:
>
> The new policy means I and other retired attorneys will no longer be part
> of this listserv. I occasionally post on historical evolution of real
> property procedure or law, as a contribution to the education of those who
> come after me, and payback for those who helped me as a newbie thirty-some
> years ago. If institutional memory is valuable, then this listserv needs an
> emeritus status to include folks like me. If us old folks are not of value,
> then cut us out. And before you say “just join the section,” remember that
> retaining bar membership after retiring means continuing to pay bar dues
> and CLE costs. Once you do that, you get tempted to do some little piece of
> practice, and then you should be insured as well, and that means needing
> more income, and suddenly you are not retired anymore. Allowing
> non-practicing members of the bar to join still means you are going to
> eliminate some of your oldest and most experienced current members, because
> they retired..
>
>
>
> Rebecca K. Wiess
>
> 421 24th Avenue East
>
> Seattle, WA  98112
>
> Phone 206 329-6638
>
> rwiess at foxinternet.net
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com [mailto:
> wsbarp-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com] *On Behalf Of *Michael Safren
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 17, 2019 9:18 AM
> *To:* WSBA Real Property Listserv; WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv
> *Subject:* [WSBARP] Update on Upcoming Changes to the Real Property and
> the Probate & Trust Listservs
>
>
>
> Hello Fellow Listservers:
>
>
>
> I wanted to provide another reminder to all listserv users of the
> scheduled updates and upcoming changes to both the Real Property and
> Probate & Trust Listservs.
>
>
>
> Starting February 1st, 2019, both listservs will only be accessible by
> WSBA RPPT members. The RPPT Executive Committee decided after much
> deliberation and input that the listservs should be an exclusive member
> benefit.  Starting February 1st, 2019, you will need to login into the
> www.wsbarppt.com website using your section login and password in order
> to register for the listserv, access the listserv archives, and/or
> unsubscribe to the listserv.
>
>
>
> Further, the Executive Committee has approved the adoption of new
> guidelines, rules, and general etiquette for the listserv.  These will be
> posted on www.wsbarppt,com under the listserv tab for all members to see
> and review.
>
>
>
> Lastly, beginning on February 1st, 2019, all listserv postings will
> contain a disclaimer in the footer reminding all that while the listservs
> will be restricted to RPPT section members, not all section members are
> practicing attorneys.  Section membership is open to law students,
> non-practicing members of the bar, and even some non-attorney professionals
> in related fields such as title officers, real estate agents, and escrow
> agents.
>
>
>
> The Executive Committee believes that these changes will improve the
> listserv experience for section members and deliver value to members as one
> of many available section member benefits.
>
>
>
> I hope to make the transition to the members only listserv as seamless as
> possible  If you experience any difficulty during the transition, please
> feel free to email me and I will do my best to respond and assist you.
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Michael Safren
>
> Web Editor, RPPT Section
>
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>
>
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>
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