[WSBAPT] PRs hiring own children as estate employees

Diane J. Kiepe DJKiepe at depdslaw.com
Mon Nov 13 09:20:39 PST 2023 

Similar but different - curious of thoughts

PR hires attorney but then attorney works mostly with PR kids - Legal fees are outrageous  - my clients have gotten screwed (can't think of any other words) - PR has lied, 36K in legal fees for about a $700,000 intestate estate, pr lived in the home with her children before listing for 2 years plus, on and on.  My clients have been emotionally worn down and  I probably should have filed before now but.......

Please note that I will be out of the office starting December 4, 2023 until approximately December 18, 2023 for medical reasons, with little to no email for the initial few days.  If you need immediate assistance, please call 509-455-5300 and ask for Sandy Saty.

Diane J. Kiepe
Douglas Eden, P.S.
717 W. Sprague Ave., Suite 1500
Spokane, WA  99201
djkiepe at depdslaw.com<mailto:djkiepe at depdslaw.com>
509-455-5300

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From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> On Behalf Of Dalynne Singleton
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2023 7:43 AM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
Subject: [WSBAPT] PRs hiring own children as estate employees

Joshua, I objected recently to overcharging for a PR based on time and hourly rate and a hearing was held.  The commissioner listened - the PR was unemployed and used the PR time as a job replacement.
I would look at the time billed for the assistants/family w/o taking into account they were the PR's children or family.  We won the motion but presented quite a bit of evidence and thorough review of the time/hourly rate being charged and what was reasonable.  The PR still received monies and those were what was agreed to so argument was not for nothing to be paid.  Of course, she deserved reasonable time and expenses to be paid.  In addition, if the assistants performed work for the low hourly rate being charged, they should be paid.  I have had commissioners ask - if you hired someone to do this task, what would you pay?  Minimum wage?  And yes they get IRS mileage for fuel.  If you want to receive a copy of my motion and evidence, please email me directly.

Dalynne Singleton
Gourley Law Group
Snohomish Escrow
The Exchange Connection
1002 10th Street / PO Box 1091
Snohomish, WA 98291
360.568.5065
360.568.8092  fax
dalynne at glgmail.com<mailto:dalynne at glgmail.com>
Website:  www.glglawgroup.com<http://www.glglawgroup.com/>
Attorney/client meetings will be handled by teleconference or virtually whenever possible.  If you would like to set a telephone conference, zoom, or in person meeting, please call or email one my paralegals selina at glgmail.com<mailto:selina at glgmail.com> or valerie at glgmail.com<mailto:valerie at glgmail.com>.  Gourley Law Group legal assistant can be reached at paige at glgmail.com<mailto:paige at glgmail.com>.

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From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>> On Behalf Of Joshua McKarcher
Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2023 4:10 PM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] PRs/TTEEs hiring own children as estate employees

Thank you so much, Andrekita, Claudia, Shannon, Diane, and Phil. Much appreciated insights! Best, Josh

From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>> On Behalf Of Diane J. Kiepe
Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2023 8:45 AM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] PRs/TTEEs hiring own children as estate employees

Just to add some insight, I find these are losing battles often but, I might send an objection to opposing counsel indicating you are prepared to formally object based on inadequate documentation and conflict of interest, but you'd prefer working things out.  The reality is, it can cost more to proceed with an objection then to tell you client to cut the losses.  I don't suggest it be a hallow statement though - if your client is willing to go forward, then don't say it.

The truck bothers me though - I assume there was not letter of instruction......so sad - I am involved in this right now but even worse - PR appears to be a thief and a liar as far as I can tell.


Diane J. Kiepe
Douglas Eden, P.S.
717 W. Sprague Ave., Suite 1500
Spokane, WA  99201
djkiepe at depdslaw.com<mailto:djkiepe at depdslaw.com>
509-455-5300

KINDLY ALLOW 2-4 WORKING DAYS TO RECEIVE A RESPONSE TO NON-URGENT EMAILS.  FEEL FREE TO SEND YOUR EMAIL (OR RESEND YOUR EMAIL AS THE CASE MAY BE) MARKED URGENT IN THE SUBJECT LINE.


DISCLAIMER: the preceding message and any attachments may contain confidential information protected by law, the attorney-client privilege or other privilege.  This communication is intended to be private and may not be recorded or copied without the consent of the author.  If you believe this message has been sent in error, REPLY to sender and then DELETE this message.  Thank you.



From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>> On Behalf Of Joshua McKarcher
Sent: Monday, November 6, 2023 5:48 PM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] PRs/TTEEs hiring own children as estate employees

Thanks, Phil. The harmed parties are the remaining 50% beneficiaries.

The four who charged the fees, etc. are related to Wife who died. My client and his sister are children of the Husband who died previously.

My client, the son, did not challenge Wife's sister's petition for appointment, even though Husband's will nominated my client as PR of Husband's estate.

"Huh?" you fairly ask.

None of Wife, sister, husband, nor their lawyer ever delivered Husband's will to my client, the nominated PR, to (1) ask if he'd like to serve because it needed to be probated; or (2) ask him to decline/renounce so they could instead.

Instead, because 40 days had passed, they simply filed a petition for appointment.

Wondering if this was okay, when served the papers, he called my office, and I agreed to call the petitioning lawyer. (Silly Josh, thinking, "This is little Clarkston. Surely this is all very simple and can be done efficiently and cooperatively. My client tells me he doesn't know his stepmother's family well but assumes they're nice enough. We don't need three PRs for this little estate. It is already ruined at the outset by certifiably horrible documents from a firm two hours north that pumps out incomprehensible RLTs to any living creature who will attend a seminar and accept that probate is Armageddon. Their 'work' has already resulted, for the umpteenth time in our small community, in real property in both the trust's and the two decedents' names, thus requiring two 'Armageddons' plus a trust administration plus a non-judicial TEDRA to resolve bizarre contingent rights of the descendants of the first-generation beneficiaries . . . of this small of an estate. Why complicate things further?")

Alas. First it was that all the tangible personal property was "theirs" because "they" said it was. And Husband's truck was "theirs" - not his own son's - because their son had "earned it" before Wife's death. Fixed that; and, after much wrangling (!), got them to let Husband's two adult children into the house one Saturday to see if they wanted anything remaining in the house. (Golf clubs were it. The son got his dad's truck, and the daughter got her dad's golf clubs. The picture of greedy, surely.)

Now, when we received the final accounting, all four checks to these fortunate beneficiaries were already written and cashed.

Now we are, naturally, the ones said to be holding things up as I try to process what I'm looking at.

I appreciate the perspective about how this plays out in Oregon. I'm not even sure I'd expect a substantial (say, over 50%) cut on the $15,800; and it would be wrong to argue for $0. As taught by a partner I worked for early in my career, I try not to ask for something I wouldn't be willing to "accept" myself. Not all were taught the same, I realize.

Thanks for the insight. Best, Josh

From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>> On Behalf Of Philip N. Jones
Sent: Monday, November 6, 2023 5:53 PM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] PRs/TTEEs hiring own children as estate employees

One question, and one comment:

  1.  Who is being harmed here?
  2.  Down here in Oregon, these sorts of situations get objected to in the final account, and a hearing is held.  In my experience, judges cut such people down substantially, but not down to zero.
Phil Jones

Philip N. Jones
Duffy Kekel LLP
900 S.W. Fifth Ave. Suite 2500
Portland, OR 97204
pjones at duffykekel.com<mailto:pjones at duffykekel.com>
(503) 226-1371 - office
(503) 853-1482 - cell
(503) 226-3574 - fax

From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>> On Behalf Of Marsha Hudson
Sent: Monday, November 6, 2023 4:10 PM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>>
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] PRs/TTEEs hiring own children as estate employees

Please respond to the list.

Marsha
Marsha C. Hudson
(She/her/hers)
Attorney at Law #23330
3221 NW 62nd Street, Seattle, WA  98107
Telephone: 206-297-3933
Fax: 206-357-9356
marsha at griffyn.us<mailto:marsha at griffyn.us>
Life's most persistent and urgent question is: What are you doing for others? - Martin Luther King, Jr.

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From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>> On Behalf Of Joshua McKarcher
Sent: Monday, November 6, 2023 4:03 PM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>>
Subject: [WSBAPT] PRs/TTEEs hiring own children as estate employees

Elderly co-PRs and co-trustees of a joint probate hired their own underemployed children - who were already beneficiaries, with the co-PRs, of 50% of the estate - to administer a single home, two cars, a couple bank accounts, and the usual tangible personal property (in non-metropolis Clarkston, mind you).

Thus, that "50% of the estate" has charged a $200,000 net estate over $15,800 in time and mileage for 4 people to clean the house, shop, run around town, etc. (This is additional to the $12,000 in reimbursed expenses the PRs advanced, and $8,000 in legal fees and costs.)

Fun facts:


  *   Over $8,000 of the fees are of the son and daughter, not the two PRs/trustees.


  *   All 4 charged $20/hour for all services.


  *   All hours on all 4 timesheets are in whole numbers, as is all mileage. (Along with mileage are charges for gas fill-ups. Woohoo!)


  *   2 hours for each bank visit, often by both PRs.


  *   10+ days of the daughter charging 8 hours flat with narrative: "cleaning."


  *   The two kids' "timesheets" were constructed recently, by reference to calendars and texts, as they didn't realize they needed to have kept contemporaneous time records. The co-PRs' at least were apparently kept contemporaneously, even if generously (by virtue of the rounding).

I have never encountered this. I do not object to fiduciary or lawyer fees; it's not my norm at all. But this feels "off."

If you have any experience with addressing such apparent nepotism and potential double dipping - or, even if you have a point of view about its reasonableness or how on earth one might determine what IS reasonable in such a case - I'd be grateful for your two cents.

I'd even sleep better to be told this is perfectly normal and that co-fiduciaries with non-intervention powers can hire anyone they want, etc., and no Washington caselaw is going to say otherwise.

Thanks, Josh

Joshua D. McKarcher
McKarcher Law PLLC
537 6th Street
Clarkston, WA 99403
(509) 758-3345
(509) 758-3314 (fax)
josh at mckarcherlaw.com<mailto:josh at mckarcherlaw.com>
www.mckarcherlaw.com<http://www.mckarcherlaw.com/>


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