[WSBAPT] IRA with "Estate" beneficiary, and RCW 11.62 small estate affidavit
Mike Winslow
mike at winslegal.com
Fri Mar 8 11:16:51 PST 2019
I responded with file attachments, but have no idea if they will make it through the list serve. Here is a link to Wa Law Help:
https://www.washingtonlawhelp.org/resource/problems-getting-title-to-my-vehicle
Michael A. Winslow
1204 Cleveland Ave.
Mount Vernon, WA 98273
Ph. 360-336-3321
Em. Mike at winslegal.com
This message is from an attorney, so it’s confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, it’s too late to stop reading this message, but you may not use it for any improper purpose. Huge Disclaimer available upon request.
-----Original Message-----
From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com [mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com] On Behalf Of Josh Grant
Sent: Friday, March 08, 2019 10:39 AM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] IRA with "Estate" beneficiary, and RCW 11.62 small estate affidavit
I have a case where client and husband bought a single wide mobile home,
years ago. Purchaser husband died. client and husband then sold it to
current owner.
Original sellers, were husband and wife. husband is deceased and wife has
dementia and son has PofA. The son is refusing to sign off on the title.
Contract was full paid. I had thought I would simply tell son that we will
sue his mom for breach of contract and serve her with pleadings but I
haven't seen the original contract (It is on its way). I am wondering if
the contract doesn't allow attorney fee collection I could have client
demand title under 11.62.010. I am troubled by 11.62.005(2)(b), which states
"Any person claiming to be a successor solely by reason of being a creditor
of the decedent.... is excluded from definition of "successor". My client
doesn't have any other relationship to original seller, just as a creditor.
Thanks for any comments.
Joshua F. Grant
P. O. Box 619
Wilbur, WA 99185
509 647 5578
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Schafer
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2019 5:46 PM
To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv
Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] IRA with "Estate" beneficiary, and RCW 11.62 small
estate affidavit
RCW 11.62.020 includes this sentence: "If any person to whom an affidavit
and proof of death is delivered refuses to pay, deliver, or transfer any
personal property, it may be recovered or its payment, delivery, transfer,
or issuance compelled upon proof of their right in a proceeding brought for
the purpose by or on behalf of the persons entitled thereto." So it would
seem to me that an affiant would need to file a complaint naming the holder
of the decedent's property as the defendant. Isn't that how one brings a
proceeding to enforce a right?
However, a wild thought occurs to me -- since TEDRA seems to be a catch-all
for "the efficient settlement of disputes in trust, estate, and nonprobate
matters" (11.96A.270), perhaps one could claim that under the court's
virtually unbounded authority in matters concerning estates and trusts
(11.96A.020(2)), a successor could file a "petition for order compelling
compliance" with the small estate affidavit, under RCW 11.96A.320 (that
affords attorney fee awards). Simply showing the filed petition to the
difficult holder of the property might be sufficient to prod compliance.
Doug Schafer, in Tacoma
On 3/7/2019 5:06 PM, Jen Doehne wrote:
>
> In Thurston County, we don’t receive cause numbers for our Small Estate
> Affidavits….I’m not sure if they would if I pushed for one since it is
> really an open and close matter.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Jen
>
> *Jennifer Doehne, Attorney at Law, LL.M.*
>
> *BEAN, GENTRY, WHEELER & PETERNELL, PLLC*
>
> 910 Lakeridge Way SW
>
> Olympia, Washington 98502
>
> Phone: 360.357.2852 | Fax: 360.786.6943
>
> jdoehne at bgwp.net <mailto:jdoehne at bgwp.net> | www.bgwp.net
> <http://www.bgwp.net/>
>
> cid:image001.jpg at 01CD1C79.4F5DF2B0
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> *From:*wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com
> [mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com] *On Behalf Of *Andrekita Silva
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 07, 2019 4:53 PM
> *To:* Paul Neumiller <pneumiller at hotmail.com>
> *Cc:* WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [WSBAPT] IRA with "Estate" beneficiary, and RCW 11.62 small
> estate affidavit
>
>
> When I filed the Small Estate Affidavit, it was a filing fee of $20.00,
> same as filing a Will Filing Only No probate.
>
> I always put a caption on my Small Estate Affidavit, as if I were going to
> file it, although I’m pretty confident I have never done so in the past.
>
> Like any other pleading filed, the court clerk gave me the cause #, which
> was a probate action cause #, so 18-4- …. SEA
>
> So, my caption:
>
> SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF WASHINGTON
> IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF KING
>
> SMALL ESTATE AFFIDAVIT
>
> AFFIDAVIT OF -xxxx-- ( the beneficiary/ person handling the small estate
> matter)
> FOR DISTRIBUTION OF DECEDENT’S PROPERTY
>
>
> Below that, I put the affidavit.
>
> The Clerk did say " I can't remember if I've seen someone file one of
> these .." but she didn't bat an eye and just went about the business of
> taking it, giving me my cause #, and the stamp to conform the copies I
> took. I actually had my client issue multiple originals as a couple of
> the asset holders asked for the ORIGINAL affidavit. I don't know why a
> straight up conformed copy would not have been good enough but it was easy
> enough to accomodate the request.
>
> andrekita
> Law Office of F. Andrekita Silva
> 1325 Fourth Avenue, Suite 2000
> Seattle, Washington 98101
> 206-224-8288
> www.seattle-silvalaw.com <http://www.seattle-silvalaw.com>
>
>
>
>
> Quoting Paul Neumiller <pneumiller at hotmail.com
> <mailto:pneumiller at hotmail.com>>:
>
> Andrekita, how did you file the Affidavit? Did you use a standard
> masthead, and if yes, who did you put as the parties? Was the cause
> number as a civil action or a probate action, or ??? Thanks, I’m
> just trying to figure out how you did this because I suspect the
> court clerks in my county would reject filing the Affidavit.
>
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> *From:* wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com
> <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com
> <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>> *On Behalf Of* Andrekita
> Silva
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 7, 2019 2:35 PM
> *To:* WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com
> <mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>>
> *Subject:* Re: [WSBAPT] IRA with "Estate" beneficiary, and RCW 11.62
> small estate affidavit
>
> Eric
>
> I had a similar situation this past summer. I had a small estate and
> one of the asset holders of some stock options insisted on an EIN and
> insisted that the asset needed to be distributed to the estate, not
> the beneficiary.
>
> After a few rounds of communication, explaining the whole purpose for
> the small affidavit procedure being to avoid the cost of probate),
> etc. and getting nowhere, I filed the small estate affidavit with the
> court.
>
> I sent the conformed copy of the affidavit (with its cause number and
> date stamp received by courthouse) to the asset holder with a copy of
> the statute and again, explained the purpose of the statute. I do not
> ordinarily file the small estate affidavit with the court. But, in
> this case, it seemed to do the trick. The asset holder had many
> different versions of forms and finally came up with the one that
> addressed our situation.
>
> So, if you haven’t filed the affidavit and gotten a cause number, try
> that.
>
> andrekita
> Law Office of F. Andrekita Silva
> 1325 Fourth Avenue, Suite 2000
> Seattle, Washington 98101
> 206-224-8288
> www.seattle-silvalaw.com <http://www.seattle-silvalaw.com>
>
>
>
>
>
> Quoting Eric Nelsen <Eric at sayrelawoffices.com
> <mailto:Eric at sayrelawoffices.com>>:
>
> No, not based on the information I have from the custodian. It's
> pretty clear that they want to (A) transfer the decedent's IRA
> investments into an "Estate IRA" with an EIN tied to the Estate,
> and then (B) let the PR direct them how to distribute the new
> Estate IRA. They don't want to collapse the steps and allow
> direct transfer to the three heirs.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Eric
>
> Eric C. Nelsen
>
> SAYRE LAW OFFICES, PLLC
>
> 1417 31st Ave South
>
> Seattle WA 98144-3909
>
> phone 206-625-0092
>
> fax 206-625-9040
>
> *From:* wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com
> <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> [mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com] *On Behalf Of* Jane
> Bitz
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 07, 2019 11:29 AM
> *To:* WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv
> *Subject:* Re: [WSBAPT] IRA with "Estate" beneficiary, and RCW
> 11.62 small estate affidavit
>
> Eric:
>
> Will the IRA custodian consider distributing directly to the
> three beneficiaries of the “estate” with the proper
> documentation, essentially each heir claiming their 1/3 using the
> lack of probate affidavit?
>
> Jane Bitz.
>
> Jane G Bitz
>
> Of Counsel
>
> Wolff, Hislop & Crockett, PLLC
>
> 12209 E Mission, Suite 5
>
> Spokane Valley WA 99206-4824
>
> (509) 927-9700; FAX (509) 777-1800
>
> jbitz at whc-attorneys.com <mailto:jane at jbitzlaw.com>
>
>
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> *From:* wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com
> <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> <wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com
> <mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com>> *On Behalf Of* Eric
> Nelsen
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 7, 2019 11:04 AM
> *To:* WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv (wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com
> <mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>) <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com
> <mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>>
> *Subject:* [WSBAPT] IRA with "Estate" beneficiary, and RCW 11.62
> small estate affidavit
>
> I didn't think this was a first for me, but maybe it is--
>
> Decedent had a small IRA that had the default "estate"
> beneficiary. Total value less than $30,000.
>
> Submitted a small estate affidavit directing distribution to my
> client, for my client's account and also as agent for the other
> two heirs. Obviously my client isn't the PR of the Estate, but
> just a "successor" entitled to submit the affidavit, and also
> agent for the other heirs per their authorizations.
>
> Custodian of the IRA refuses to distribute, because the "Estate"
> is the beneficiary, and therefore there must be a PR appointed
> who can receive the money on behalf of the "Estate."
>
> Is there no way around starting a probate in this scenario? I am
> thinking my client is stuck with starting a probate.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Eric
>
> Eric C. Nelsen
>
> SAYRE LAW OFFICES, PLLC
>
> 1417 31st Ave South
>
> Seattle WA 98144-3909
>
> phone 206-625-0092
>
> fax 206-625-9040
>
> andrekita
> Law Office of F. Andrekita Silva
> 1325 Fourth Avenue, Suite 2000
> Seattle, Washington 98101
> 206-224-8288
> www.seattle-silvalaw.com <http://www.seattle-silvalaw.com>
>
> andrekita
> Law Office of F. Andrekita Silva
> 1325 Fourth Avenue, Suite 2000
> Seattle, Washington 98101
> 206-224-8288
> www.seattle-silvalaw.com <http://www.seattle-silvalaw.com>
>
>
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