[WSBAPT] Creditor's Claim Against an Estate Passing Through a Revocable Living Trust
Theresa Nguyen
theresa at tnguyenlaw.com
Wed Feb 15 12:26:27 PST 2017
Hi all,
I am intrigued by this issue. I read some suggestions that the creditor could open probate…I was wondering why not we just bring a TEDRA action under RCW 11.96A?
11.96A.080 provides that "any party" may have a judicial proceeding for the declaration of rights or legal relations with respect to any “manner"…as provided under 11.96A.030..
11.96A.030 provides that “party” includes creditors and “matters” include any "nonprobate assets", and “nonprobate assets” is defined by 11.02.005 as "trust of which the person is grantor and that becomes effective or irrevocable only upon the person's death”..
Would it be easier to just bring a TEDRA petition in the Estate’s name and serve the Trustee? Problem I can see is how do you find who the Trustee is if you don’t have a copy of the trust document...
Sincerely,
Theresa Nguyen, J.D., LL.M.
Law Office of Theresa Nguyen, PLLC
707 S Grady Way, Suite 600 | Renton, WA 98057
Ph. 425.998.7295 | Fax 425.420.2695
www.tnguyenlaw.com | theresa at tnguyenlaw.com
This e-mail and the attachments within is covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. secs. 2510-2521, and is legally privileged and confidential. This communication may also be protected by attorney-client privilege, the work product doctrine or other applicable legal protections. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, the reader is hereby notified that any unauthorized review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail or call the sender at 425.998.7295 and destroy all copies of the original message.
> On Feb 15, 2017, at 12:00 PM, wsbapt-request at lists.wsbarppt.com wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Creditor's Claim Against an Estate Passing Through a
> Revocable Living Trust (Eric Reutter)
> 2. Re: Creditor's Claim Against an Estate Passing Through a
> Revocable Living Trust (Marcus Fry)
> 3. Re: Bank requires both co-PRs on account (Setareh Mahmoodi)
> 4. Re: Creditor's Claim Against an Estate Passing Through a
> Revocable Living Trust (Setareh Mahmoodi)
> 5. Re: residential real estate referral (Scott Hildebrand)
> 6. Suit Against Trust v. Opening Probate - Legal Leap
> (Paul Neumiller)
> 7. Re: Suit Against Trust v. Opening Probate - Legal Leap
> (Marcus Fry)
> 8. Property Ownership/ Trust Question (Scott Hildebrand)
> 9. How to sell a timeshare (Lisa Schuchman)
> 10. Re: Property Ownership/ Trust Question (Christopher Small)
> 11. Re: Property Ownership/ Trust Question (John Creahan)
> 12. Re: Suit Against Trust v. Opening Probate - Legal Leap
> (John Creahan)
> 13. Re: Property Ownership/ Trust Question (Patrick Galloway)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 12:59:27 -0800
> From: Eric Reutter <eric at appelgatereutter.com>
> To: wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com
> Subject: [WSBAPT] Creditor's Claim Against an Estate Passing Through a
> Revocable Living Trust
> Message-ID:
> <CAF85q-a9=kH5Ze251hWUAtp1T0faQPXoJjnE-o_D+8m45FXK1g at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hello and good afternoon,
>
> I have a quick question that is more procedural than it is legal. Potential
> client is a creditor against a decedent's estate. Decedent's assets were
> held in a revocable living trust.
>
> I am familiar with RCW Ch. 11.42, which is the creditor claims procedure
> for nonprobate assets. I understand that, to make a creditor's claim
> against an estate passing without probate, I follow the same procedure as
> when filing a creditor's claim in a traditional probate (mailing the claim
> to the notice agent).
>
> Here is my question, however: *what is the procedure for making a
> creditor's claim against a trustee of a revocable living trust?* RCW Ch.
> 11.42 describes the "notice agent" as the person who followed a creditor's
> claim procedure or who gave an oath in a court matter to be the notice
> agent. In my case, I do not believe the trustee filed a notice to
> creditors.
>
> The specific question, therefore, i, *if I can find out who the trustee is,
> do I simply follow standard creditor's claim procedures and mail the
> creditor's claim to him/her?* Am I missing any nuances that are different
> when the assets where held in a revocable living trust?
>
> Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Best regards,
>
>
> *Eric Reutter, *Partner
> *J.D., LL.M. Taxation*
> 14205 SE 36th Street, Suite 100
> Bellevue, WA 98006
> *(425) 298-7110* | *appelgatereutter.com <http://appelgatereutter.com/> *
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
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> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 22:18:25 +0000
> From: Marcus Fry <mfry at lyon-law.com>
> To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Creditor's Claim Against an Estate Passing
> Through a Revocable Living Trust
> Message-ID:
> <BN4PR14MB0497CA8C9895C35479273E11F6580 at BN4PR14MB0497.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> One of two options: Move to open up a probate as a creditor. Or sue the trust. The trust is a separate entity and unless the nonprobate claim procedure is followed, there should be no bar to suit. I would be interested in anyone who has actual experience with this because I have a case that just walked in the door similar to the one below on my side of the mountain.
>
> Marcus J. Fry
> Lyon, Weigand & Gustafson, P.S.
> Yakima, WA.
>
> Confidentiality: This e-mail transmission may contain information which is protected by attorney-client, work product and/or other privileges. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, or taking of any action in reliance on the contents, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please contact us immediately and return the e-mail to us by choosing Reply (or the corresponding function on your e-mail system) and then deleting the e-mail.
>
> From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com [mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com] On Behalf Of Eric Reutter
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 12:59 PM
> To: wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com
> Subject: [WSBAPT] Creditor's Claim Against an Estate Passing Through a Revocable Living Trust
>
> Hello and good afternoon,
>
> I have a quick question that is more procedural than it is legal. Potential client is a creditor against a decedent's estate. Decedent's assets were held in a revocable living trust.
>
> I am familiar with RCW Ch. 11.42, which is the creditor claims procedure for nonprobate assets. I understand that, to make a creditor's claim against an estate passing without probate, I follow the same procedure as when filing a creditor's claim in a traditional probate (mailing the claim to the notice agent).
>
> Here is my question, however: what is the procedure for making a creditor's claim against a trustee of a revocable living trust? RCW Ch. 11.42 describes the "notice agent" as the person who followed a creditor's claim procedure or who gave an oath in a court matter to be the notice agent. In my case, I do not believe the trustee filed a notice to creditors.
>
> The specific question, therefore, i, if I can find out who the trustee is, do I simply follow standard creditor's claim procedures and mail the creditor's claim to him/her? Am I missing any nuances that are different when the assets where held in a revocable living trust?
>
> Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Best regards,
>
>
> Eric Reutter, Partner
> J.D., LL.M. Taxation
> 14205 SE 36th Street, Suite 100
> Bellevue, WA 98006
> (425) 298-7110 | appelgatereutter.com<http://appelgatereutter.com/>
>
> [https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1_ki68D-hyjqSa4GiscGPV7pYrrbXnk4Y-J2oVpiqZnU/pub?w=1142&h=323]
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 14:45:09 -0800
> From: Setareh Mahmoodi <mahmoodi.setareh at gmail.com>
> To: "WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv" <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Bank requires both co-PRs on account
> Message-ID:
> <CAE-Fwjt-9sqKnKzA2UdDNgu+W=vYODPmef0tj0_-kdkyteRg-Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Ugh! Couldn't agree more! Glad they'll be in better hands!
>
> On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 8:37 PM, Melinda <mkgroutlaw at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Setareh. I ended up writing a letter saying "...as you no doubt
>> already know, the law in Washington is... hope it prompted just a bit of
>> guilt but I doubt it. They made my client incur entirely unnecessary legal
>> fees. Client got the funds from decedents account and then took them
>> elsewhere to open estate account.
>>
>> Misspelled from my iPhone
>>
>> Melinda
>>
>> Law Office of Melinda K Grout
>> PO Box 1360
>> Monroe, WA 98272
>> (360) 794-4322. Tel
>> (425) 744-e6745. Fax
>>
>> Notice: This message is intended only for the addressee, and may contain
>> confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended
>> recipient, it is too late to stop reading, but please do not use it for any
>> improper purpose.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 13, 2017, at 6:24 PM, Setareh Mahmoodi <mahmoodi.setareh at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Melinda,
>>
>> I hate BECU, for legal matters. I often have issues with them for my
>> bankruptcy clients as well with their cross collateralization process.
>>
>> However, a couple of years ago I had a similar issue with a probate with
>> two co PRs. I ended up being able to resolve it by writing a letter citing
>> the statute and speaking with the branch manager. However, I would highly
>> recommend opening the estate account at a regular bank if it's a
>> possibility for your clients. BOA in Bothell is awesome!
>>
>> Setareh
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 12:52 PM, Melinda Grout <mkgroutlaw at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> One of our favorites ;) BECU. They are also planning on going around
>>> the creditors process, and holding back funds to pay off the credit card?
>>>
>>> I?m writing them a letter right now.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Melinda Grout
>>> Law Office of Melinda K Grout, PS
>>> 17325 W. Main Street / P.O. Box 1360
>>> Monroe, WA 98272
>>> 360-794-4322 <(360)%20794-4322> / Fax: 425-744-6745 <(425)%20744-6745>
>>>
>>> Emphasizing Estate Planning, Probate, and Elder Law
>>> mkgroutlaw.com
>>>
>>> NOTE:
>>> 1. This office does not accept service of pleadings or process service
>>> by e-mail or fax except with the express prior permission of the intended
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Please always call 206-683-1006 <(206)%20683-1006> or email before
>> dropping by the office as I could be in court or meetings. Thanks!
>>
>> *Best regards, *
>>
>>
>> *Setareh Mahmoodi *
>>
>> *Attorney at Law *
>>
>> *18222 104th Ave NE, Suite 103*
>>
>> *Bothell, WA 98011*
>>
>> *Phone: 425-806-1500 <(425)%20806-1500>*
>>
>> *Cell: 206-683-1006 <(206)%20683-1006>*
>>
>> *Fax: 425-489-4142 <(425)%20489-4142> (Please email documents if at all
>> possible) *
>>
>> *Website: **http://www.lawofficesofsm.com/
>> <http://www.lawofficesofsm.com/>*
>>
>>
>> *CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:* This email message and any attachments is a
>> transmission from the law firm and is intended for the recipient only.
>> It may contain information that is confidential and legally protected by
>> the attorney-client, work product and/or other privileges. If you are not
>> the designated or intended recipient, please destroy the message without
>> disclosing any of its contents and notify us immediately by reply email or
>> by calling (425) 806-1500.
>>
>> Pursuant to U.S. Treasury Department Regulations, we are now required to
>> advise you that, unless otherwise expressly indicated, any federal tax
>> advice contained in this communication, including attachments and
>> enclosures, is not intended or written to be used, and may not be used, for
>> the purpose of (i) avoiding tax-related penalties under the Internal
>> Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party
>> any tax-related matters addressed herein.
>>
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>
>
>
> --
>
> Please always call 206-683-1006 or email before dropping by the office as I
> could be in court or meetings. Thanks!
>
> *Best regards, *
>
>
> *Setareh Mahmoodi *
>
> *Attorney at Law *
>
> *18222 104th Ave NE, Suite 103*
>
> *Bothell, WA 98011*
>
> *Phone: 425-806-1500*
>
> *Cell: 206-683-1006*
>
> *Fax: 425-489-4142 (Please email documents if at all possible) *
>
> *Website: **http://www.lawofficesofsm.com/ <http://www.lawofficesofsm.com/>*
>
>
> *CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:* This email message and any attachments is a
> transmission from the law firm and is intended for the recipient only. It
> may contain information that is confidential and legally protected by the
> attorney-client, work product and/or other privileges. If you are not the
> designated or intended recipient, please destroy the message without
> disclosing any of its contents and notify us immediately by reply email or
> by calling (425) 806-1500.
>
> Pursuant to U.S. Treasury Department Regulations, we are now required to
> advise you that, unless otherwise expressly indicated, any federal tax
> advice contained in this communication, including attachments and
> enclosures, is not intended or written to be used, and may not be used, for
> the purpose of (i) avoiding tax-related penalties under the Internal
> Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party
> any tax-related matters addressed herein.
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 16:42:13 -0800
> From: Setareh Mahmoodi <mahmoodi.setareh at gmail.com>
> To: "WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv" <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Creditor's Claim Against an Estate Passing
> Through a Revocable Living Trust
> Message-ID:
> <CAE-FwjuLbYyMu9d8xa0N4XR9N4yU7zG1X5233xXzQ5DCe6f59Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I, too, am representing a creditor with a claim against the estate in a
> somewhat similar situation. In the beginning, a probate was not opened, and
> there were rumors of a trust. So we had planned on opening a probate as a
> creditor to resolve the issue. All my research pointed to that being the
> best method. Suing the trust seemed to be more work and more problematic,
> but then the decedent's heirs opened a probate themselves admitting the
> pour over will and publishing notice, so made my life easier, since now I
> can just present the claim in the probate.
>
> I think opening the probate as a creditor might be a good option especially
> if you can't find information on the trust/trustee. Please do share what
> you end up finding out and the course of action you take for future
> reference.
>
> Setareh
>
> On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Marcus Fry <mfry at lyon-law.com> wrote:
>
>> One of two options: Move to open up a probate as a creditor. Or sue the
>> trust. The trust is a separate entity and unless the nonprobate claim
>> procedure is followed, there should be no bar to suit. I would be
>> interested in anyone who has actual experience with this because I have a
>> case that just walked in the door similar to the one below on my side of
>> the mountain.
>>
>>
>>
>> Marcus J. Fry
>>
>> Lyon, Weigand & Gustafson, P.S.
>>
>> Yakima, WA.
>>
>> *Confidentiality: *This e-mail transmission may contain information which
>> is protected by attorney-client, work product and/or other privileges. If
>> you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
>> disclosure, or taking of any action in reliance on the contents, is
>> strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error,
>> please contact us immediately and return the e-mail to us by choosing Reply
>> (or the corresponding function on your e-mail system) and then deleting the
>> e-mail.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com [mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.
>> wsbarppt.com] *On Behalf Of *Eric Reutter
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 14, 2017 12:59 PM
>> *To:* wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com
>> *Subject:* [WSBAPT] Creditor's Claim Against an Estate Passing Through a
>> Revocable Living Trust
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello and good afternoon,
>>
>> I have a quick question that is more procedural than it is legal.
>> Potential client is a creditor against a decedent's estate. Decedent's
>> assets were held in a revocable living trust.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am familiar with RCW Ch. 11.42, which is the creditor claims procedure
>> for nonprobate assets. I understand that, to make a creditor's claim
>> against an estate passing without probate, I follow the same procedure as
>> when filing a creditor's claim in a traditional probate (mailing the claim
>> to the notice agent).
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is my question, however: *what is the procedure for making a
>> creditor's claim against a trustee of a revocable living trust?* RCW Ch.
>> 11.42 describes the "notice agent" as the person who followed a creditor's
>> claim procedure or who gave an oath in a court matter to be the notice
>> agent. In my case, I do not believe the trustee filed a notice to
>> creditors.
>>
>>
>>
>> The specific question, therefore, i, *if I can find out who the trustee
>> is, do I simply follow standard creditor's claim procedures and mail the
>> creditor's claim to him/her?* Am I missing any nuances that are different
>> when the assets where held in a revocable living trust?
>>
>>
>>
>> Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Eric Reutter, *Partner
>>
>> *J.D., LL.M. Taxation*
>>
>> 14205 SE 36th Street, Suite 100
>>
>> Bellevue, WA 98006
>>
>> *(425) 298-7110 <(425)%20298-7110>* | *appelgatereutter.com
>> <http://appelgatereutter.com/>*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Confidentiality: This e-mail may contain information that is privileged,
>> confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not the
>> intended recipient or otherwise have received this message in error, you
>> are not authorized to read, print, retain, copy or disseminate this message
>> or any part of it. In such case, you should destroy this message and any
>> attachments and kindly notify the sender by reply email.
>>
>>
>>
>> Circular 230 Notice: This communication may not be used by you or
>> any other person or entity for the purpose of avoiding any federal
>> tax penalties.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> WSBAPT mailing list
>> WSBAPT at lists.wsbarppt.com
>> http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/wsbapt
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Please always call 206-683-1006 or email before dropping by the office as I
> could be in court or meetings. Thanks!
>
> *Best regards, *
>
>
> *Setareh Mahmoodi *
>
> *Attorney at Law *
>
> *18222 104th Ave NE, Suite 103*
>
> *Bothell, WA 98011*
>
> *Phone: 425-806-1500*
>
> *Cell: 206-683-1006*
>
> *Fax: 425-489-4142 (Please email documents if at all possible) *
>
> *Website: **http://www.lawofficesofsm.com/ <http://www.lawofficesofsm.com/>*
>
>
> *CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:* This email message and any attachments is a
> transmission from the law firm and is intended for the recipient only. It
> may contain information that is confidential and legally protected by the
> attorney-client, work product and/or other privileges. If you are not the
> designated or intended recipient, please destroy the message without
> disclosing any of its contents and notify us immediately by reply email or
> by calling (425) 806-1500.
>
> Pursuant to U.S. Treasury Department Regulations, we are now required to
> advise you that, unless otherwise expressly indicated, any federal tax
> advice contained in this communication, including attachments and
> enclosures, is not intended or written to be used, and may not be used, for
> the purpose of (i) avoiding tax-related penalties under the Internal
> Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party
> any tax-related matters addressed herein.
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 08:45:10 -0800
> From: "Scott Hildebrand" <scott at starboard-strategies.com>
> To: "'WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv'" <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] residential real estate referral
> Message-ID: <00b601d287aa$dfa72930$9ef57b90$@starboard-strategies.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Sharon-
>
> I'd be happy to help. I have been doing such transactions for a number of
> years and would welcome a call from your clients.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Scott Hildebrand
>
> Attorney at Law
>
> 206-605-8874
>
>
>
> From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com
> [mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com] On Behalf Of Sharon Rutberg
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 8:15 AM
> To: wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com
> Subject: [WSBAPT] residential real estate referral
>
>
>
> Good morning -
>
>
>
> Looking for a referral to a reasonably priced, experienced real estate
> attorney to help in the next week or so with a residential sale in Queen
> Anne, Seattle, and purchase of property in the Edmonds/Everett area.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sharon
>
>
>
> Law Office of Sharon C. Rutberg, PS
>
> 1734 NW Market St.
>
> Seattle, WA 98107
>
> Website: www.sharonrutberglaw.com <http://www.sharonrutberglaw.com/>
>
> 206-409-2604
>
> email at sharonrutberglaw.com <mailto:email at sharonrutberglaw.com>
>
> Washington State Bar #47055
> D.C. Bar #420576
>
> NOTICES
> The contents of this message and any attachments may be protected by the
> attorney-client privilege, work product doctrine, and/or other applicable
> protections. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this
> message in error, please notify the sender and promptly delete the message.
> Thank you for your assistance.
>
>
>
> IRS Circular 230 Disclaimer: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed
> by the IRS, we inform you that to the extent this communication contains
> advice relating to a Federal tax issue, it is not intended or written to be
> used, and it may not be used, for (i) the purpose of avoiding any penalties
> that may be imposed on you or any other person or entity under the Internal
> Revenue Code or (ii) promoting or marketing to another party any transaction
> or matter addressed herein.
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 17:14:20 +0000
> From: Paul Neumiller <pneumiller at hotmail.com>
> To: "wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com" <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> Subject: [WSBAPT] Suit Against Trust v. Opening Probate - Legal Leap
> Message-ID:
> <CY1PR1101MB1225D2A6F573BA540D261E0AD25B0 at CY1PR1101MB1225.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> There has been a recent post asking how can a creditor collect from a rumored trust when the family doesn?t open a probate. Some have suggested that the creditor should open a probate. But how does that work? If all of the deceased?s assets are in a trust (so the deceased, in effect, dies penniless) how does opening a probate get to the assets of the trust? How does the personal representative/creditor even learn about the trust? I know there must be a RCW somewhere that addresses this because if a person can frustrate the collection efforts of creditors by using a trust, we would all dump our assets into revocable trusts (I envision my wife power shopping at Nordstrom while I?m on my death bed.) On a practical matter, would the creditor open the probate, bring a TEDRA action, and then use discovery to learn about the existence of the trust?
>
> [cid:image002.jpg at 01D2876A.B24E6150]
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 17:31:43 +0000
> From: Marcus Fry <mfry at lyon-law.com>
> To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Suit Against Trust v. Opening Probate - Legal
> Leap
> Message-ID:
> <BN4PR14MB0497B27F83162F07169A394DF65B0 at BN4PR14MB0497.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Paul:
> I am one of the attorneys that asked the question. First, to answer your questions about trusts, RCW 19.36.020 answers the question. We do not have self-settled protection trust laws (there is about 15 states that do however). You place your assets into a trust for your use and benefit, such assets will be available to creditors. Second, I think the probate route is a good idea if you are unsure there is a trust because you get a personal representative appointed who then has authority to look into the affairs of the decedent and obtain trust documents, etc. My situation was a little different as I knew there is a trust and I also knew that the trust owns assets, in my case real estate. My question was whether I could just take legal action against the trust as a creditor of the decedent without having to go the probate route first because I am aware of the existence of the trust and the assets held by the trust. I think I can because the trust continues in existence !
> after death.
>
> Marcus J. Fry
> Lyon, Weigand & Gustafson, P.S.
> P.O. Box 1689
> Yakima, Washington 98907
> Telephone: (509) 248-7220
> Facsimile: (509) 575-1883
>
> NOTICES:
> Confidentiality: This e-mail transmission may contain information which is protected by attorney-client, work product and/or other privileges. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, or taking of any action in reliance on the contents, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please contact us immediately and return the e-mail to us by choosing Reply (or the corresponding function on your e-mail system) and then deleting the e-mail.
>
> From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com [mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com] On Behalf Of Paul Neumiller
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 9:14 AM
> To: wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com
> Subject: [WSBAPT] Suit Against Trust v. Opening Probate - Legal Leap
>
> There has been a recent post asking how can a creditor collect from a rumored trust when the family doesn't open a probate. Some have suggested that the creditor should open a probate. But how does that work? If all of the deceased's assets are in a trust (so the deceased, in effect, dies penniless) how does opening a probate get to the assets of the trust? How does the personal representative/creditor even learn about the trust? I know there must be a RCW somewhere that addresses this because if a person can frustrate the collection efforts of creditors by using a trust, we would all dump our assets into revocable trusts (I envision my wife power shopping at Nordstrom while I'm on my death bed.) On a practical matter, would the creditor open the probate, bring a TEDRA action, and then use discovery to learn about the existence of the trust?
>
> [cid:image002.jpg at 01D2876D.A6DF6910]
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 10:15:05 -0800
> From: "Scott Hildebrand" <scott at starboard-strategies.com>
> To: "'WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv'" <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> Subject: [WSBAPT] Property Ownership/ Trust Question
> Message-ID: <00c501d287b7$6fb34430$4f19cc90$@starboard-strategies.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dear Trust Gurus:
>
> With the disclaimer that I only get wrapped up in trust law when it crosses
> with property law, here is a question I am hoping you all can shed some
> light on.
>
>
>
> A client is attempting to acquire a property that is in the name of a family
> trust. The trustor has passed as has the personal representative for the
> trustor's estate. The pr's pr is still around and has been the point on this
> so far. Because the family trust owns the property, the title insurer is
> asking that we do a petition naming an alternate trustee for the trust,
> which would be the pr's pr in all likelihood.
>
>
>
> I have never done one of these, but it seems as though it would be pretty
> straightforward after all the required notice provisions. For those of you
> who have done such a pleading, how does it go and what do I need to do? Some
> crib forms would be awesome if someone would like to share.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Scott Hildebrand
>
> Attorney at Law
>
> 206-605-8874
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 18:55:26 +0000
> From: Lisa Schuchman <lisa at lisaschuchman.com>
> To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> Subject: [WSBAPT] How to sell a timeshare
> Message-ID:
> <7D19CD802811E94DBAFA0F7A5F65628559522EB7 at MBX251.domain.local>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi, all,
>
> I have an estate that owned a timeshare in Florida. A FL attorney did an ancillary probate and transferred title to the heirs. There are past due fees and dues - we've approached the company about what would essentially be a deed in lieu of foreclosure but the only person with that authority is on family leave. So the PR is ready to try to sell it. Anyone want to buy it? Just kidding! Does anyone know a trustworthy sale company for this?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Lisa E. Schuchman
> 206-960-4212
> www.lisaschuchman.com<http://www.lisaschuchman.com/>
>
> There are no passengers on spaceship earth. We are all crew. - Marshall McLuhan
>
> NOTE: I do not use encrypted email. Messages sent to or from my office via email are not secure and may not be protected by attorney-client privilege. This email address is not monitored at all times. If your matter is urgent, please phone my office during regular business hours.
>
> Any tax advice included in this document and its attachments was not intended or written to be used, and it cannot be used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code.
> P Please consider the trees before printing this document
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 11:00:15 -0800
> From: Christopher Small <chris at cmslawfirm.com>
> To: "WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv" <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Property Ownership/ Trust Question
> Message-ID:
> <CALM_vUL8OZjxQe6d2gwt_97kOqiyYpLzdsXM2xMCvXzUcQffzQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> This is where I would start:
>
> RCW 11.98.039 <http://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=11.98.039>
>
> What does the trust say for appointing successor trustees?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Christopher Small
> CMS Law Firm LLC <http://cmslawfirm.com>
> 150 Lake St., Suite 227
> Kirkland, WA 98033
> 206.659.1512
>
> On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 10:15 AM, Scott Hildebrand <
> scott at starboard-strategies.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear Trust Gurus:
>>
>> With the disclaimer that I only get wrapped up in trust law when it
>> crosses with property law, here is a question I am hoping you all can shed
>> some light on.
>>
>>
>>
>> A client is attempting to acquire a property that is in the name of a
>> family trust. The trustor has passed as has the personal representative for
>> the trustor?s estate. The pr?s pr is still around and has been the point on
>> this so far. Because the family trust owns the property, the title insurer
>> is asking that we do a petition naming an alternate trustee for the trust,
>> which would be the pr?s pr in all likelihood.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have never done one of these, but it seems as though it would be pretty
>> straightforward after all the required notice provisions. For those of you
>> who have done such a pleading, how does it go and what do I need to do?
>> Some crib forms would be awesome if someone would like to share.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Scott Hildebrand
>>
>> Attorney at Law
>>
>> 206-605-8874 <(206)%20605-8874>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> WSBAPT mailing list
>> WSBAPT at lists.wsbarppt.com
>> http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/wsbapt
>>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 19:15:08 +0000
> From: John Creahan <john at cairn-law.com>
> To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Property Ownership/ Trust Question
> Message-ID:
> <CY1PR0601MB16117F11341D125C1525B9CC965B0 at CY1PR0601MB1611.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Do you have a copy of the trust?s governing instrument? Was the PR named as trustee of the trust? Is a successor trustee identified or is there a procedure in place for naming a successor?
> I would be very careful about doing any legal work on behalf of the trust. Getting a new trustee appointed should not be undertaken casually, and I suspect that there are irreconcilable conflicts between your client, the buyer, and the new trustee.
> Just my $.02.
> John
>
> John Creahan
> www.cairn-law.com<http://www.cairn-law.com/>
> Now located in the heart of Fremont
> 3417 Evanston Ave. N, Suite 312
> Seattle, WA 98103
> 206-578-5877
>
>
> From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com [mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Small
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 11:00 AM
> To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Property Ownership/ Trust Question
>
> This is where I would start:
>
> RCW 11.98.039<http://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=11.98.039>
>
> What does the trust say for appointing successor trustees?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Christopher Small
> CMS Law Firm LLC<http://cmslawfirm.com>
> 150 Lake St., Suite 227
> Kirkland, WA 98033
> 206.659.1512
>
> On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 10:15 AM, Scott Hildebrand <scott at starboard-strategies.com<mailto:scott at starboard-strategies.com>> wrote:
> Dear Trust Gurus:
> With the disclaimer that I only get wrapped up in trust law when it crosses with property law, here is a question I am hoping you all can shed some light on.
>
> A client is attempting to acquire a property that is in the name of a family trust. The trustor has passed as has the personal representative for the trustor?s estate. The pr?s pr is still around and has been the point on this so far. Because the family trust owns the property, the title insurer is asking that we do a petition naming an alternate trustee for the trust, which would be the pr?s pr in all likelihood.
>
> I have never done one of these, but it seems as though it would be pretty straightforward after all the required notice provisions. For those of you who have done such a pleading, how does it go and what do I need to do? Some crib forms would be awesome if someone would like to share.
>
> Thanks,
> Scott Hildebrand
> Attorney at Law
> 206-605-8874<tel:(206)%20605-8874>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WSBAPT mailing list
> WSBAPT at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:WSBAPT at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/wsbapt
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 19:33:51 +0000
> From: John Creahan <john at cairn-law.com>
> To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Suit Against Trust v. Opening Probate - Legal
> Leap
> Message-ID:
> <CY1PR0601MB16119160D1A6A86B5F65CFD4965B0 at CY1PR0601MB1611.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I would phrase this a little differently.
> Assuming that the creditor's claim is against the decedent (and not directly against her revocable living trust, which would be very unusual), the creditor needs to follow normal probate procedures. If no probate is opened and no notice agent appointed, I agree with Marcus that the creditor's only option would be to open a probate, or at least threaten to do so.
> Once a claim has been allowed, the assets held in the revocable living trust are available to satisfy the claim, as provided in RCW 11.18.200 (2)(e):
> A trust for the decedent's use of which the decedent is the grantor is subject to the decedent's liabilities, claims, estate taxes, and administration expenses as described in subsection (1) of this section, to the same extent as the trust was subject to claims of the decedent's creditors immediately before death under RCW 19.36.020<http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=19.36.020>.
> I don't think the decedent's revocable living trust would be liable for the decedent's pre-death debts unless the claim had been previously approved by the probate court.
> My $.02.
> John
>
> John Creahan
> www.cairn-law.com<http://www.cairn-law.com/>
> Now located in the heart of Fremont
> 3417 Evanston Ave. N, Suite 312
> Seattle, WA 98103
> 206-578-5877
>
>
> From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com [mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Fry
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 9:32 AM
> To: WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Suit Against Trust v. Opening Probate - Legal Leap
>
> Paul:
> I am one of the attorneys that asked the question. First, to answer your questions about trusts, RCW 19.36.020 answers the question. We do not have self-settled protection trust laws (there is about 15 states that do however). You place your assets into a trust for your use and benefit, such assets will be available to creditors. Second, I think the probate route is a good idea if you are unsure there is a trust because you get a personal representative appointed who then has authority to look into the affairs of the decedent and obtain trust documents, etc. My situation was a little different as I knew there is a trust and I also knew that the trust owns assets, in my case real estate. My question was whether I could just take legal action against the trust as a creditor of the decedent without having to go the probate route first because I am aware of the existence of the trust and the assets held by the trust. I think I can because the trust continues in existence !
> after death.
>
> Marcus J. Fry
> Lyon, Weigand & Gustafson, P.S.
> P.O. Box 1689
> Yakima, Washington 98907
> Telephone: (509) 248-7220
> Facsimile: (509) 575-1883
>
> NOTICES:
> Confidentiality: This e-mail transmission may contain information which is protected by attorney-client, work product and/or other privileges. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, or taking of any action in reliance on the contents, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please contact us immediately and return the e-mail to us by choosing Reply (or the corresponding function on your e-mail system) and then deleting the e-mail.
>
> From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com> [mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com] On Behalf Of Paul Neumiller
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 9:14 AM
> To: wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com<mailto:wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> Subject: [WSBAPT] Suit Against Trust v. Opening Probate - Legal Leap
>
> There has been a recent post asking how can a creditor collect from a rumored trust when the family doesn't open a probate. Some have suggested that the creditor should open a probate. But how does that work? If all of the deceased's assets are in a trust (so the deceased, in effect, dies penniless) how does opening a probate get to the assets of the trust? How does the personal representative/creditor even learn about the trust? I know there must be a RCW somewhere that addresses this because if a person can frustrate the collection efforts of creditors by using a trust, we would all dump our assets into revocable trusts (I envision my wife power shopping at Nordstrom while I'm on my death bed.) On a practical matter, would the creditor open the probate, bring a TEDRA action, and then use discovery to learn about the existence of the trust?
>
> [cid:image002.jpg at 01D2877E.B06BA780]
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 11:52:46 -0800
> From: "Patrick Galloway" <patrick at alsnorthwest.com>
> To: "'WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv'" <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> Subject: Re: [WSBAPT] Property Ownership/ Trust Question
> Message-ID: <007001d287c5$151aca30$3f505e90$@alsnorthwest.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> You can often avoid the necessity judicial appointment:
>
>
>
> <http://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=11.98.039>
> http://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=11.98.039
>
>
>
>
>
> Patrick J. Galloway
>
> Advance Legal Services, PLLC
>
> 8113 W. Quinault Ave. Suite 101
>
> Kennewick, WA 99336
>
> (509) 851-7884
>
> <http://www.alsnorthwest.com/> www.alsnorthwest.com
>
> This E-Mail message and any documentation accompanying this transmission may
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> From: wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com
> [mailto:wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com] On Behalf Of Scott Hildebrand
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:15 AM
> To: 'WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv' <wsbapt at lists.wsbarppt.com>
> Subject: [WSBAPT] Property Ownership/ Trust Question
>
>
>
> Dear Trust Gurus:
>
> With the disclaimer that I only get wrapped up in trust law when it crosses
> with property law, here is a question I am hoping you all can shed some
> light on.
>
>
>
> A client is attempting to acquire a property that is in the name of a family
> trust. The trustor has passed as has the personal representative for the
> trustor's estate. The pr's pr is still around and has been the point on this
> so far. Because the family trust owns the property, the title insurer is
> asking that we do a petition naming an alternate trustee for the trust,
> which would be the pr's pr in all likelihood.
>
>
>
> I have never done one of these, but it seems as though it would be pretty
> straightforward after all the required notice provisions. For those of you
> who have done such a pleading, how does it go and what do I need to do? Some
> crib forms would be awesome if someone would like to share.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Scott Hildebrand
>
> Attorney at Law
>
> 206-605-8874
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> WSBAPT mailing list
> WSBAPT at lists.wsbarppt.com
> http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/wsbapt
>
> End of WSBAPT Digest, Vol 29, Issue 16
> **************************************
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