[WSBAPT] Beneficiary Designations

Wed Apr 15 14:40:52 PDT 2015

I guess I have to apologize for posting this question as it has proved
quite confusing to many.  I did not give good background or specifics.  I
am sorry!  I am familiar with all the work-arounds and most issues that
come up in these matters.

My question, put in another way, is this.

When an estate is the beneficiary named on a beneficiary designation form
for a large IRA/401k (ouch!!!), has anyone thought about whether the PR
could disclaim the asset.   In this case, the agreement states if there are
no beneficiaries living, the spouse, if any, will inherit.  If no spouse,
then the children.  My major question, therefore was whether anyone has
ever had a PR sign a disclaimer of a retirement asset?

I certainly haven't...

Sorry for the confusion.  I am now out of the office until Tuesday.  Have a
great weekend everyone!

Kathie

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 1:53 PM, John Creahan <john at cairn-law.com> wrote:

>  Hi Katherine,
>
> I’m confused about the beneficiary designations here. You said that Dad
> did not file the beneficiary designations you created. Did the unfiled
> designations name Mom then estate? Or did Dad already have beneficiary
> designations on file that named mom and then the estate as beneficiaries
> and the unfiled designations had a different distribution scheme?
>
> If there are no beneficiary designations on file, if you haven’t already
> done so, you may want to check the governing instrument to see who takes in
> default (some institutions have children as default beneficiaries).
>
> Assuming the estate is the default beneficiary, I don’t think the PR can
> disclaim on behalf of the estate to get distributions out to the kids. The
> good news is I don’t think she has to. The estate may be able to get a
> financial institution to divide Dad’s IRA into accounts for each
> beneficiary. Not all financial institutions are willing to do so, but
> Natalie Choate strongly believes that it is permissible, and that the PR
> can transfer the account to a more accommodating bank. Ms. Choate
> discusses this issue at http://www.ataxplan.com/bulletinboard/
> ira_providers.cfm. The children would still not be able to withdraw based
> on their life expectancies, however. (This topic has recently come up on
> this board so you may be able to find other comments.)
>
> Also, I don’t know if it helps, but Mom may have had a community property
> interest in the account and, even if she didn’t, her estate may have some
> claims to the funds under Washington’s simultaneous death statute (RCW
> 11.05A). Her PR could potentially disclaim on her behalf, but you might
> end up with the assets still going to Dad’s estate. Also, this is obviously
> a sad situation, and you may not know why Dad committed suicide. But, if he
> was responsible for Mom’s death, you may need to think about how the slayer
> statute would impact the distributions.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> John Creahan
> john at cairn-law.com
>
> 1325 4th Ave., Suite 940
> Seattle, WA 98101
> 206-621-5848
> www.cairn-law.com
>
> [image: cid:image001.png at 01CE636C.3EB992D0]
>
>
>
> *From:* wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com [mailto:
> wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com] *On Behalf Of *Katharine P. Bauer
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 15, 2015 1:03 PM
> *To:* WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv
> *Subject:* Re: [WSBAPT] Beneficiary Designations
>
>
>
> Thanks Liv, all things I briefly thought of.  I appreciate the comments!
> I have just never had the PR disclaim any IRAs/retirement plans payable to
> the estate so wondered if anyone else had done that....all depends on the
> above and on the contract language, of course.
>
> Thanks!  Hope all is well with you and yours.  Been a while since we
> talked!
>
> Kathie
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:52 AM, Liv Wernecke <lwernecke at bpmlaw.com>
> wrote:
>
>  Katherine, Here are some issues: Watch RMD, selling securities as an
> acceptance 25.2518-2(d)(1) etc.; community property issues; RR 2005-36,
> Regs 1.401(a)(9)-8; see GCM 39868 on income tax; also, the provider’s
> agreement or adoption agreement may have a troublesome clause or two. It
> may provide how the H’s 1/2 interest passes. Who does one send the
> disclaimer to; the provider and PR? Proof of timing of the deaths is
> obviously important. Any problems with  PR’s  power to disclaim? I have not
> thought through the son’s piece. Regards, Liv
>
>
>
>
>
> *Livingston (Liv) Wernecke*
>
> *Shareholder*
>
> Betts, Patterson & Mines, P.S.
>
> One Convention Place
>
> 701 Pike Street, Suite 1400
>
> Seattle, WA  98101-3927
>
> D 206.268.8679 | F 206.343.7053 | C 206.953.6161
>
> www.bpmlaw.com
>
> *[image: logo+tagline-medium (2)]*
>
>
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> *From:* wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com [mailto:
> wsbapt-bounces at lists.wsbarppt.com] *On Behalf Of *Katharine P. Bauer
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 15, 2015 11:15 AM
> *To:* WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv
> *Subject:* [WSBAPT] Beneficiary Designations
>
>
>
> Situation:
>
> Mom died, Dad committed suicide an hour later.
>
> Dad has huge IRA for which he did not follow through on filing with them
> the beneficiary designations we created.  Primary was mom, secondary is
> Estate.  This is a taxable estate and we will lose a large percentage of
> the IRA to taxes.
>
>
>
> Estate legatees/beneficiaries are an adult daughter and trust for disabled
> adult son.
>
>
>
> Question:   Has anyone ever had a PR "disclaim" a payment from an IRA to
> the estate?  (Daughter is PR) The "fallback" beneficiaries in the contract
> are the children.  My thought is to force payment outright to kids, allow
> them to take over their lifetime,  Son could place his share into a
> self-settled trust or ???  Largest IRA - $1 million - holder is not
> allowing PR to direct to daughter/SNtrust under terms of Will.  I can go
> for a court order.
>
>
>
> Just curious about the disclaimer idea.  Not busy enough today to take the
> easy route.
> --
>
> Katharine P. Bauer
>
> Bauer Pitman Lifetime Legal, PLLC
> 1235 Fourth Ave. East, Suite 200
> Olympia, Washington 98501
> tel. 360.754.1976
> fax. 360.943.4427
>
> e-mail: kpb at bpblegal.com
>
> This message is confidential and may be protected by the attorney-client
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>
> --
>
> Katharine P. Bauer
>
> Bauer Pitman Lifetime Legal, PLLC
> 1235 Fourth Ave. East, Suite 200
> Olympia, Washington 98501
> tel. 360.754.1976
> fax. 360.943.4427
>
> e-mail: kpb at bpblegal.com
>
> This message is confidential and may be protected by the attorney-client
> privilege; it is intended solely for the use of the individual named above.
> If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby advised that any
> dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly
> prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately
> notify the sender by telephone or e-mail, delete this message from your
> files, and return any printed copies to the sender by U.S. mail. Circular
> 230 Disclosure: Any tax advice contained in this communication (including
> any attachments) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used,
> for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties that may be imposed under the
> Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to
> another party any transaction, arrangement, or other matter
>
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-- 
Katharine P. Bauer
Bauer Pitman Lifetime Legal, PLLC
1235 Fourth Ave. East, Suite 200
Olympia, Washington 98501
tel. 360.754.1976
fax. 360.943.4427

 e-mail: kpb at bpblegal.com

 This message is confidential and may be protected by the attorney-client
privilege; it is intended solely for the use of the individual named above.
If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby advised that any
dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately
notify the sender by telephone or e-mail, delete this message from your
files, and return any printed copies to the sender by U.S. mail. Circular
230 Disclosure: Any tax advice contained in this communication (including
any attachments) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used,
for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties that may be imposed under the
Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to
another party any transaction, arrangement, or other matter
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