<div dir="ltr">I guess I have to apologize for posting this question as it has proved quite confusing to many. I did not give good background or specifics. I am sorry! I am familiar with all the work-arounds and most issues that come up in these matters.<div><br></div><div>My question, put in another way, is this.</div><div><br></div><div>When an estate is the beneficiary named on a beneficiary designation form for a large IRA/401k (ouch!!!), has anyone thought about whether the PR could disclaim the asset. In this case, the agreement states if there are no beneficiaries living, the spouse, if any, will inherit. If no spouse, then the children. My major question, therefore was whether anyone has ever had a PR sign a disclaimer of a retirement asset?</div><div><br></div><div>I certainly haven't...</div><div><br></div><div>Sorry for the confusion. I am now out of the office until Tuesday. Have a great weekend everyone!</div><div><br></div><div>Kathie</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 1:53 PM, John Creahan <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:john@cairn-law.com" target="_blank">john@cairn-law.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6.0pt"><span style="color:#595959">Hi Katherine,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6.0pt"><span style="color:#595959">I’m confused about the beneficiary designations here. You said that Dad did not file the beneficiary designations you
created. Did the unfiled designations name Mom then estate? Or did Dad already have beneficiary designations on file that named mom and then the estate as beneficiaries and the unfiled designations had a different distribution scheme?
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6.0pt"><span style="color:#595959">If there are no beneficiary designations on file, if you haven’t already done so, you may want to check the governing
instrument to see who takes in default (some institutions have children as default beneficiaries).
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6.0pt"><span style="color:#595959">Assuming the estate is the default beneficiary, I don’t think the PR can disclaim on behalf of the estate to get distributions
out to the kids. The good news is I don’t think she has to. </span><span style="color:#595959">The estate may be able to get a financial institution to divide Dad’s IRA into accounts for each beneficiary. Not all financial institutions
are willing to do so, but Natalie Choate strongly believes that it is permissible, and that the PR can transfer the account to
<span>a</span> more accommodating bank. Ms. Choate discusses this issue at
<a href="http://www.ataxplan.com/bulletinboard/ira_providers.cfm" target="_blank">http://<span>www.ataxplan.com</span>/<span>bulletinboard</span>/<span>ira_providers.cfm</span></a>. The children would still not be able to withdraw
based on their life expectancies, however. (</span><span style="color:#595959">This topic has recently come up on this board so you may be able to find other comments.)</span><span style="color:#595959"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:6.0pt"><span style="color:#595959">Also, I don’t know if it helps, but Mom may have had a community property interest in the account and, even if she didn’t, her estate may have some claims
to the funds under Washington’s simultaneous death statute (RCW <span>
11.05A</span>). Her PR could potentially disclaim on her behalf, but you might end up with the assets still going to Dad’s estate. Also, this is obviously a sad situation, and you may not know why Dad committed suicide. But, if he was responsible for Mom’s
death, you may need to think about how the slayer statute would impact the distributions.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959">John<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Tw Cen MT",sans-serif;color:#595959">John Creahan</span><span style="font-family:"Tw Cen MT",sans-serif;color:#595959"><br>
<a href="mailto:john@cairn-law.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:#595959">john@cairn-law.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Tw Cen MT",sans-serif;color:#595959">1325 4<sup>th</sup> Ave., Suite 940<br>
Seattle, WA 98101<br>
<a href="tel:206-621-5848" value="+12066215848" target="_blank">206-621-5848</a><br>
<a href="http://www.cairn-law.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color:#595959">www.cairn-law.com</span></a></span><span style="font-family:"Tw Cen MT",sans-serif;color:#4f6228"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#39471d"><img border="0" width="161" height="60" src="cid:image002.png@01D07783.9C2B9F30" alt="cid:image001.png@01CE636C.3EB992D0"></span><span style="color:#595959"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#595959"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Katharine P. Bauer<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 15, 2015 1:03 PM<span class=""><br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv<br>
</span><b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBAPT] Beneficiary Designations<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks Liv, all things I briefly thought of. I appreciate the comments! I have just never had the PR disclaim any IRAs/retirement plans payable to the estate so wondered if anyone else had done that....all depends on the above and on
the contract language, of course.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks! Hope all is well with you and yours. Been a while since we talked!<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Kathie<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:52 AM, Liv Wernecke <<a href="mailto:lwernecke@bpmlaw.com" target="_blank">lwernecke@bpmlaw.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Katherine, Here are some issues: Watch RMD, selling securities as an acceptance 25.2518-2(d)(1) etc.; community property
issues; RR 2005-36, Regs 1.401(a)(9)-8; see GCM 39868 on income tax; also, the provider’s agreement or adoption agreement may have a troublesome clause or two. It may provide how the H’s 1/2 interest passes. Who does one send the disclaimer to; the provider
and PR? Proof of timing of the deaths is obviously important. Any problems with PR’s power to disclaim? I have not thought through the son’s piece. Regards, Liv</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Livingston (Liv) Wernecke</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Shareholder</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Betts, Patterson & Mines, P.S.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">One Convention Place</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">701 Pike Street, Suite 1400
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Seattle, WA 98101-3927</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">
<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">
</span><a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> [mailto:</span><a href="mailto:wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">wsbapt-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Katharine P. Bauer<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 15, 2015 11:15 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Probate & Trust Listserv<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [WSBAPT] Beneficiary Designations</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Situation:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mom died, Dad committed suicide an hour later.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dad has huge IRA for which he did not follow through on filing with them the beneficiary designations we created. Primary was mom, secondary is Estate. This is a taxable estate
and we will lose a large percentage of the IRA to taxes.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Estate legatees/beneficiaries are an adult daughter and trust for disabled adult son.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Question: Has anyone ever had a PR "disclaim" a payment from an IRA to the estate? (Daughter is PR) The "fallback" beneficiaries in the contract are the children. My thought
is to force payment outright to kids, allow them to take over their lifetime, Son could place his share into a self-settled trust or ??? Largest IRA - $1 million - holder is not allowing PR to direct to daughter/SNtrust under terms of Will. I can go for
a court order.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Just curious about the disclaimer idea. Not busy enough today to take the easy route.<br>
-- <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Katharine P. Bauer</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Bauer Pitman Lifetime Legal, PLLC<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Katharine P. Bauer</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
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