[Vision2020] Rand Paul

[Art Deco]

British Author Somerset Maugham was an intelligence agent also.

His Ashenden stories are believed to reflect the nature of intelligence
gathering then and now.  A short, very readable story entitled "The
Hairless Mexican" is perhpas quite relevant to this discussion.

w.


On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> wrote:

> Your response does not fit the scenario, Mr. Rumelhart.
>
> The "confirmed intelligence" which I cited in my example is always
> classified.  Being classified, it is not available either to the general
> public or Faux News.
>
> What source do you have that even implies the criteria you suggest?
>
> You have absolutely no idea of what information is known or not known, as
> it should be.
>
> Information is classified for a reason.
>
> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>
> "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
> http://www.MoscowCares.com
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
> "There's room at the top they are telling you still
> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>
> - John Lennon
>
>
> On Mar 7, 2013, at 10:46 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Two points:
>
> 1.  If the rule of law forbids the killing of that person in that way,
> then you are advocating for murder.
>
> 2.  I don't believe that our President has anything close to the intel
> that you are assuming here.  We don't even know the identities of most of
> the targets of the drone strikes, excluding even the collateral damage, so
> I doubt we have enough intel to know exactly what they are planning.  Their
> criteria seems to be "if he looks like a terrorist, and he walks like a
> terrorist, then he must be taken out".
>
> Paul
>
>
>   ------------------------------
> *From:* Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
> *To:* Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> *Cc:* Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>; Sunil Ramalingam <
> sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>; "<vision2020 at moscow.com>" <
> vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 7, 2013 10:22 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Rand Paul
>
> So, Mr. Rumelhart . . .
>
> Your letter to the next of kin of each of those soldiers killed at the
> observation post would be prefaced with "Mistakes happen . . . "?
>
> Would you personally deliver these letters or send them "Postage Due"?
>
> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>
> "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
> http://www.MoscowCares.com <http://www.moscowcares.com/>
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
> "There's room at the top they are telling you still
> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>
> - John Lennon
>
>
> On Mar 7, 2013, at 9:47 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> What if we got "confirmed intelligence" that you were about to do the same
> thing?  Mistakes happen, that's why we have courts of law, and rules, and
> that Constitution thing.
>
> Paul
>
>
>   ------------------------------
> *From:* Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
> *To:* Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> *Cc:* "<vision2020 at moscow.com>" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 7, 2013 9:02 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Rand Paul
>
> I stand by my statements, Sunil.
>
> If it were determined that the lives of soldiers at a forward observation
> post could have been saved, based on confirmed intelligence that a member
> of al-Qaeda (a US citizen)  was going to infiltrate and destroy that post
> (at the cost of American lives).  And the only way to prevent this from
> occurring was to kill the perpetrator . . .
>
> Would you take that final, yet necessary action?
>
> If not, how could you explain your failure to act?
>
> 'Nuff said.
>
> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>
> "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
> http://www.MoscowCares.com <http://www.moscowcares.com/>
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
> "There's room at the top they are telling you still
> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>
> - John Lennon
>
>
>
> On Mar 7, 2013, at 8:43 AM, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Tom,
> I'm not at all confused. How do you know anything you say in your first
> paragraph is true? These are claims the state makes. They are judge, jury,
> and prosecutor. There is NO due process.
>
> And what of the civilians we kill? That's okay?
>
> Please don't say I'm confused about this. I'm just done being partisan.
>
> Sunil
>
> ------------------------------
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> From: thansen at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Rand Paul
> Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 07:57:13 -0800
> To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>
> Let me clarify some confusion you may be experiencing, Sunil.
>
> If a US citizen has been proven to be a member of a terrorist organization
> and is involved in activity the purpose of which it is to kill US citizens
> (or citizens of a country allied to the US), under the most extreme of
> situations, after all options have been considered, and after all potential
> outcomes have been weighed, application of the absolute final option may
> become a necessity against that US citizen . . . if that citizen is located
> outside the judicial jurisdiction of the United States; in which case I am
> certain that the authorities (i.e. local police, county sheriff, state
> police, FBI, etc) apply a concept very similar to the one I have explained.
>
> In the case of the Bush-Cheney rationales for torturing people in which
> case torture is managed like a game show . . .
>
> "Tell us, Colonel Jacobs.  Who's the next contestant on 'Tell Us or Die'?"
>
> "Khalid Shaikh Mohammed come on down."
>
> -------------------------------------
>
> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>
> "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
> http://www.MoscowCares.com <http://www.moscowcares.com/>
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
> "There's room at the top they are telling you still
> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>
> - John Lennon
>
>
> On Mar 7, 2013, at 6:39 AM, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>  Oh, I'm familiar with it. This is the horseshit the Administration
> spreads. Horseshit. They don't provide proof of their charges. They don't
> allow challenges before they kill.
>
> If you agree with their rationales for killing people, you agree with the
> Bush-Cheney rationales for torturing people.
>
> Do you?
>
> Sunil
>
> ------------------------------
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> From: moscowcares at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Rand Paul
> Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 06:26:36 -0800
> To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>
> Courtesy of a link from your source, Sunil . . .
>
> http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/020413_DOJ_White_Paper.pdf
>
> <image.jpeg>
>
> As disgusting as this practice may be, the absolute final option may (in
> EXTREME circumstances) become necessary.  Potential outcomes, when one
> reaches the proverbial "Y" in the road of circumstances, must be weighed
> against each other.
>
> For instance, young children (less than 16 years of age) were often used
> by the North Vietnamese during the Vietnam war in carrying explosives
> strapped to their bodies onto US observation posts.
>
> War NEVER determines who is right, Sunil, only who is left.
>
> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>
> "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
> http://www.MoscowCares.com <http://www.moscowcares.com/>
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
> "There's room at the top they are telling you still
> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>
> - John Lennon
>
>
> On Mar 7, 2013, at 5:59 AM, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>  Tom,
>
> Are you kidding me? Okay, here's one link:
>
>
> http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/05/16856963-american-drone-deaths-highlight-controversy?lite
>
> As the article points out, we also killed Al Awlaki's 16 year old son in a
> separate attack.
>
> But this isn't the first time I've brought this up here; you should hardly
> be in the dark about it.
>
> Sunil
>
> ------------------------------
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> From: thansen at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Rand Paul
> Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 05:52:49 -0800
> To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>
> Perhaps, Sunil, you should provide evidence that the Obama administration
> is responsible for killing US citizens, or a US citizen, in the absence of
> due process.
>
> I suggest this because I am not the one making an allegation. You are.
>
> Here is the letter sent from Attorney General Eric Holder to Rand Paul
> (dated March 4, 2013 - less than 72 hours ago).
>
> http://paul.senate.gov/files/documents/BrennanHolderResponse.pdf
>
> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>
> "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
> http://www.MoscowCares.com <http://www.moscowcares.com/>
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
> "There's room at the top they are telling you still
> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>
> - John Lennon
>
>
> On Mar 7, 2013, at 5:33 AM, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>  You have not proven your point. This is an administration that does not
> reveal information. If or when they kill a citizen without due process,
> they will not provide all the reasons or evidence they claim supports them.
> They will just tell us they needed to do it, and that will be it. They
> won't allow their decisions to be challenged. They regularly don't even
> acknowledge that drone attacks outside the US have even occurred.
>
> Sunil
>
> ------------------------------
> CC: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> From: thansen at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Rand Paul
> Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 05:16:05 -0800
> To: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
>
> <215407_10151331874981275_1548944263_n.png>
> Like I've said before . . .
>
> Paranoia, self-destroya.
>
> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>
> "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
> http://www.MoscowCares.com <http://www.moscowcares.com/>
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
> "There's room at the top they are telling you still
> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>
> - John Lennon
>
>
> On Mar 7, 2013, at 5:01 AM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I'm suspicious of R Paul. Why did he make it simply a domestic concern?
> What exactly is the number of people that we've killed in the US with
> drones? Say what you wish but the problem that Rand actually talked about
> is not a pressing issue at the time (not as pressing as the economy for
> instance) IMO. The timing is curious.
>
> No one who has posted on the thread is in favor of the current drone
> policy. When it comes to drones, my concern has more to do with the death
> of innocents than with the issue of rights but we've killed far more
> innocents without drones than with them. I didn't here R Paul talk about
> that.
>
> I don't see how the innocent folks who died in the initial Iraq invasion
> are merely an acceptable cost of war but when an innocent dies from a drone
> intended for a terrorist, that is atrocious. To me the Iraq war was and is
> one horrible mistake and drones are just part of that.
>
> Given the timing and the content of the speech, R Paul's comments strike
> me as purely political.
>
> On Mar 6, 2013, at 10:23 PM, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>  I'm with Paul R and R Paul on this. Like Paul R, when I read Sen. Paul's
> statement, my regret was that he limits his concern to US citizens on US
> soil. We should be concerned about these atrocities wherever they occur.
> This, and his expansion of the security state and executive power, and his
> refusal to prosecute torturers (but his willingness to prosecute those who
> expose it) led me to vote for Jill Stein in the last election. That was the
> first time since 1980, when I could first vote, that I didn't vote for the
> Democratic Party candidate. And I'm not coming back while the Democrats
> embrace and take Bush-Cheney policies to heart.
>
> Sunil
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 18:43:14 -0800
> From: godshatter at yahoo.com
> To: donaldrose at cpcinternet.com
> CC: Vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Rand Paul
>
>
> "Showboating", huh?  Whatever.
>
> The vast amount of drone strikes overseas have either been against people
> on their kill list going about their day, not currently involved in a
> violent attack, or they have been against people they can't identify but
> that they are reasonably sure are terrorists because of their
> associations.  Again, not taking them out while they are actively engaged
> in combat, just assassinating them wherever they happen to find them, doing
> whatever they happen to be doing at that moment.  Doing the dishes, blam,
> dead, along with who knows how many people nearby.  No due process, no
> vetting of evidence, no jury of their peers, no idea even what criteria our
> President uses to determine who gets to die that day.
>
> Nobody I've seen is saying that we can't use drones, even on American
> soil, against people actively involved in combat.  The problem is that that
> isn't what they are being used for.
>
> If you want to wish this away as some kind of stunt because he's a Paul or
> because he's a Republican or because you don't like his haircut, then
> you're part of the problem.  Our President is out of control with these
> assassinations, and our police departments are out of control in their
> militarization.  Drop the damned Us vs. Them crap, please.
>
> Paul
>
> On 03/06/2013 06:06 PM, Rosemary Huskey wrote:
>
>  Should there be a disclaimer with this “purist’s” showboating?   Where
> does shooting someone in self-defense, or those occasions when law
> enforcement  officers are forced by a  critically dangerous situation (for
> example  a gun battle) to shoot to kill come into this equation?  I am sure
> that Rand will zoon right to the top of the list of right wing nutbags with
> this stunt.
> Rose
>
>
>  *From:* vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [
> mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com <vision2020-bounces at moscow.com>] *On
> Behalf Of *Paul Rumelhart
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 06, 2013 5:55 PM
> *To:* Vision 2020
> *Subject:* [Vision2020] Rand Paul
>
> I found this on Google+, I didn't make it and I don't claim it.
>
> I don't agree with this guy on everything by any means and I wish he'd
> left out the "on American soil" part, but I am behind him on this.
>
> <ATT00001>
>
>
> Paul
>
>
>
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-- 
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
art.deco.studios at gmail.com
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