[Vision2020] systemic injustice
Paul Rumelhart
godshatter at yahoo.com
Tue Jul 23 08:06:37 PDT 2013
I'm not trying to say that Martin definitely said "you are going to die tonight", I just bring it up as a possibility (since it's what our only witness states happened) to counter the idea that he's a cold-blooded killer of black kids. I was under the impression that people would want to know for sure before they started assuming such terrible things about a person. Silly me. Anyway, I can't fight that level of hatred anymore. Fuck George Zimmerman! Yay!
I never did say that race didn't play a part in this whole fiasco. I just said that it didn't need to. I have seen nothing to make me believe that Zimmerman was motivated by race in this incident. But racial conflict sells papers and the "white guy stalks and guns down innocent black child" narrative is a strong one.
Paul
________________________________
From: Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>
To: Sunil <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>; "godshatter at yahoo.com" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
Cc: viz <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 12:27 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] systemic injustice
Paul,
I agree with Sunil somewhat. Here's my take on your comments below:
1)
Martin punching Zimmerman in the face - I would believe this if I was a
juror. Police arrived on the scene within moments (2 minutes?) of the
shooting. The police photographed him at the scene with a swollen,
bloody nose. The medical report taken the day after the shooting lists
'a "closed fracture" of his nose, a pair of black eyes, and bruising in
the upper lip and cheek.
2) Martin punching Zimmerman in the face
and pounding his head into
the pavement repeatedly - I would believe one pounding but not
necessarily 'repeated poundings' of his head into the pavement. He was
photographed at the police station with bleeding at the back of his
head. The medical report taken the day after the shooting lists 'two
lacerations on the back of his head, one of them nearly an inch long,
the other about a quarter-inch long'
3) Martin allegedly telling
Zimmerman was going to die when
he noticed his gun - I'd disregard this completely because there
is no supporting evidence to corroborate this. Am I wrong about this?
The
only thing I'd say about Sunil's comment of 'one aspect of that agenda
is to defend guns' is that Zimmerman, I believe, had a conceal carry
permit so according to Florida law he was in legal possession of the gun
with which he fatally shot Trayvon Martin. FWIW, I'm against conceal
carry.
As for Sunil's comment on a previous post of 'And anyone
who pretends race doesn't affect the criminal justice system is full of
crap.', I wholeheartedly agree.
Now did race play a role in the
acquittal of George Zimmerman? Maybe. If this information was
available, you'd need to look at the racial make up of the jury and how
the deliberation progressed. For example, if the majority of the jury
was white and their initial votes were 'not guilty' versus any mixed
race jurors initially voting 'guilty', then that would be troubling.
-Scott
________________________________
From: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 18:51:34 -0700
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice
There's a difference with this being a version of what happened and it being the truth. You cling to it because it fits your agenda.
Since one aspect of that agenda is to defend guns, do you think the young man who went into the night the night Jason Hamilton was killing people was acting responsibly?
Sunil
________________________________
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 18:35:57 -0700
From: godshatter at yahoo.com
To: suehovey at moscow.com
CC: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice
Martin punching Zimmerman in the face and pounding his head into
the pavement repeatedly and then telling he was going to die when
he noticed his gun doesn't factor into it at all? It *has* to be
about race?
Fine. I just don't get it. Enjoy your fantasy. Be sure to get
extra outraged about it for me, ok?
Paul
On 07/22/2013 06:13 PM, Sue Hovey wrote:
>Weighing in on this topic for the first time, but briefly; I think, "white guy stalks and guns down an innocent black teenager" is exactly what happened.
>
>Sue H
>From: Sunil Ramalingam
>Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 6:03 PM
>To: vision2020 at moscow.com ; godshatter at yahoo.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice
> Disservice to Zimmerman? He killed a kid because he's a dumbshit cop wannabe, and you're concerned about disservices to that sphincter?
>
>I didn't follow the case closely and I don't know if there
was enough evidence to convict. I won't criticize the
verdict because I would gladly take it if I were
Zimmerman's lawyer.
>
>But I think the cops did a poor job at the beginning and
that affected everything that followed. And anyone who
pretends race doesn't affect the criminal justice system
is full of crap.
>
>Sunil
>
>>________________________________
> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 16:47:10 -0700
>From: godshatter at yahoo.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice
>To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
>
>
>I agree he should have gone home. I just don't like the mis-characterization of him as some guy that stalked Martin through the trees and murdered him in cold blood only because he was black. That's a disservice to Zimmerman, and it's only done because he had the gall to be carrying a handgun on his person in a political environment where gun control is all the rage, and because he wasn't charged with second degree murder immediately (through no fault of his own). Oh, and because everyone wants to think of him as white, and therefore "entitled".
>
>So let me ask you, do you think there was sufficient
evidence to convict Zimmerman on second degree murder
charges? Did the jury, in your personal opinion, show
systemic racism in their verdict? Also, do you think
"white guy stalks and guns down innocent black teenager"
is a fair summary of the events that happened that
night?
>
>Paul
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
> From: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 4:25 PM
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice
>
>
>
>Paul,
>
>Your defense of Zimmerman stopped being
outlandish last week; you're well beyond
that now.
>
>I don't think you should use 'meme' to
describe what others are saying until you
comprehend that Zimmerman should have
listened to the dispatcher and gone home.
This happened because he had a gun; if he
didn't he would have gone home.
>
>He had called 911; he was done.
>
>Sunil
>
>>________________________________
> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 11:42:56 -0700
>From: godshatter at yahoo.com
>To: rhayes at frontier.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice
>
>
>I respectfully disagree with your conclusion. I don't think the jury verdict is an example of systemic racism. That was my original point. They just didn't have the evidence needed to convict. From looking at the evidence myself, I support their decision. Race doesn't enter into it, it's just a conclusion based on the evidence.
>
>I do see two places where systemic racism
might have occurred:
>
>1. When the police decided not to arrest
Zimmerman at the very beginning. I'm
assuming the police didn't arrest him
because they didn't think they had a case,
which was born out by the not guilty
verdict. They probably should have
arrested him anyway and let the courts
figure that out, though. Maybe they didn't
arrest him because he was white/hispanic.
That's certainly possible. It's also
possible that it had more to do with the
fact that he knew them. That would be
cronyism, though.
>
>2. The other place where I see systemic
racism is in how the media and the liberal
community both are treating this case.
NBC doctored the 911 call at the very
beginning to make it look like racial
profiling, and everyone seems to have
jumped on that bandwagon. This didn't
have to be about race. The fact that it
became about race shows a large element of
systemic racism in our media and in many
other areas, including in political
circles. I've seen nothing to make me
think that Zimmerman targeted Martin
because he was black. Because he was
suspicious, sure. Because he was a
teenager, maybe. But not because of his
race.
>
>I also object, in a nice,
non-confrontational way, with your
characterization of people posting here
about the "rightness of the death of a boy
at the hands of a vigilante". I have
never said that Trayvon Martin should have
died, nor have I expressed an opinion
about whether or not I would think that a
good thing. I haven't seen anyone else do
so, either. I've just been trying to
express why I think the jury's verdict
made sense, and to counter the "white guy
stalks and guns down an innocent black
teenager" meme that, based on the
evidence, seems to be made out of whole
cloth.
>
>I do think that Martin should not have
attacked Zimmerman, if that is indeed what
happened. The evidence I've seen points
that way. I think it's tragic that he
died, especially since this whole
confrontation could have easily been
avoided by both Martin and Zimmerman.
>
>Paul
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
> From: "rhayes at frontier.com" <rhayes at frontier.com>
>To: "vision2020 at moscow.com" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 10:43 AM
>Subject: [Vision2020] systemic injustice
>
>
>To those who insist on posting the rightness of the death of a boy at the hands of a vigilante, I post a soft spoken message. And I would remind you that your words may be hurtful...
>
>I live in a bubble far removed from the rest of the country and my past. When, as a young man, I moved to Moscow from just north of the Mason-Dixon line, I was relieved to be free from all the issues of race. Yea, I'm white. Privileged by my birth. As a kid, race and ethnicity were overwhelming to me. Italians hated the Irish, Poles were disliked and distrusted by almost everyone. The blacks didn't like whites in general. Whites distrusted blacks. Everyone had names for everyone else's ethnicity. Whops, spics, hunkies, kikes, hillbillies... the list of derogatory names goes on and on.
>I was despised because of being sometimes Irish, sometimes a sort of Polack. I learned to run and run fast to keep from being beaten up by what ever group that happened to cross my path. However, I didn't see/understand systemic racism until our Boy Scout troop tried to go swimming in the CITY pool. They stopped us because we were an integrated troop. Being young I never stopped to think why there never were black kids in the pool...EVER. The man that stopped us was a "greasy" (another derogatory slur)Greek with kinky hair and a pretty dark complexion. He stopped Jerome with his arm saying, "Not You!" Our scout master must have known what he was up to, and to this day I hold him in high esteem as a brave and principled man. And when that Greek guy stopped him from entering the locker, I looked at Jerome, and maybe for the first time saw him as a black kid with whom I had camped, sang, cooked dinners, and saw what his life entailed. It was much more
than name calling, being hated, distrusted. It was a system of hatred.
>
>Back to the bubble thing...
>So I moved here and left ethnicity and race issues behind. Well, not really. It isn't so much an issue here because the majority, the vast majority of people are white, like me. It is inevitable that this will change. It is already changing and changing rapidly. How will this area deal with race and ethnicity? There are hate groups and hateful people conveniently located nearby. We need to be vigilant with our communities, and with ourselves. It is convenient to be blind to the hatred surrounding us.
>
>I suppose one good thing that the so called "jury" in Florida proved is that SYSTEMIC racism still exists. I sometimes forget that. I live in a bubble. Now I am reminded, but should a young man's life be sacrificed so that I would again see? People who deny that injustice exists live in a state of blind shame.
>
>
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