<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">I'm not trying to say that Martin definitely said "you are going to die tonight", I just bring it up as a possibility (since it's what our only witness states happened) to counter the idea that he's a cold-blooded killer of black kids. I was under the impression that people would want to know for sure before they started assuming such terrible things about a person. Silly me. Anyway, I can't fight that level of hatred anymore. Fuck George Zimmerman! Yay!<br><br>I never did say that race didn't play a part in this whole fiasco. I just said that it didn't need to. I have seen nothing to make me believe that Zimmerman was motivated by race in this incident. But racial conflict sells papers and the "white guy stalks and guns down innocent black child" narrative is a strong
one.<br><br>Paul<br><div><span><br></span></div><div><br></div> <div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <hr size="1"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Scott Dredge <scooterd408@hotmail.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Sunil <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com>; "godshatter@yahoo.com" <godshatter@yahoo.com> <br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> viz <vision2020@moscow.com> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, July 23, 2013 12:27 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [Vision2020] systemic injustice<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container"><br><div id="yiv4791372710">
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<div><div dir="ltr">Paul,<br><br>I agree with Sunil somewhat. Here's my take on your comments below:<br><br>1)
Martin punching Zimmerman in the face - I would believe this if I was a
juror. Police arrived on the scene within moments (2 minutes?) of the
shooting. The police photographed him at the scene with a swollen,
bloody nose. The medical report taken the day after the shooting lists
'a "closed fracture" of his nose, a pair of black eyes, and bruising in
the upper lip and cheek.<br><br>2) Martin punching Zimmerman in the face
and pounding his head into
the pavement repeatedly - I would believe one pounding but not
necessarily 'repeated poundings' of his head into the pavement. He was
photographed at the police station with bleeding at the back of his
head. The medical report taken the day after the shooting lists 'two
lacerations on the back of his head, one of them nearly an inch long,
the other about a quarter-inch long'<br><br>3) Martin allegedly telling
Zimmerman was going to die when
he noticed his gun - I'd disregard this completely because there
is no supporting evidence to corroborate this. Am I wrong about this?<br><br>The
only thing I'd say about Sunil's comment of 'one aspect of that agenda
is to defend guns' is that Zimmerman, I believe, had a conceal carry
permit so according to Florida law he was in legal possession of the gun
with which he fatally shot Trayvon Martin. FWIW, I'm against conceal
carry.<br><br>As for Sunil's comment on a previous post of 'And anyone
who pretends race doesn't affect the criminal justice system is full of
crap.', I wholeheartedly agree.<br><br>Now did race play a role in the
acquittal of George Zimmerman? Maybe. If this information was
available, you'd need to look at the racial make up of the jury and how
the deliberation progressed. For example, if the majority of the jury
was white and their initial votes were 'not guilty' versus any mixed
race jurors initially voting 'guilty', then that would be troubling.<br><br>-Scott<br><br><div><hr id="yiv4791372710stopSpelling">From: sunilramalingam@hotmail.com<br>CC: vision2020@moscow.com<br>Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 18:51:34 -0700<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice<br><br>
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<div dir="ltr">There's a difference with this being a version of what happened and it being the truth. You cling to it because it fits your agenda.<br><br>Since one aspect of that agenda is to defend guns, do you think the young man who went into the night the night Jason Hamilton was killing people was acting responsibly?<br><br>Sunil <br><br><hr>Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 18:35:57 -0700<br>From: godshatter@yahoo.com<br>To: suehovey@moscow.com<br>CC: sunilramalingam@hotmail.com; vision2020@moscow.com<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice<br><br>
<div class="yiv4791372710ecxmoz-cite-prefix"><br>
Martin punching Zimmerman in the face and pounding his head into
the pavement repeatedly and then telling he was going to die when
he noticed his gun doesn't factor into it at all? It *has* to be
about race? <br>
<br>
Fine. I just don't get it. Enjoy your fantasy. Be sure to get
extra outraged about it for me, ok?<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
On 07/22/2013 06:13 PM, Sue Hovey wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri';COLOR:#000000;">
<div>Weighing in on this topic for the first time, but
briefly; I think, <font face="Times New Roman">"white guy
stalks and guns down an innocent black teenager" is
exactly what happened. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman">Sue H</font></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri';FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;TEXT-DECORATION:none;DISPLAY:inline;">
<div style="FONT:10pt tahoma;">
<div> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND:#f5f5f5;">
<div style=""><b>From:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="sunilramalingam@hotmail.com" ymailto="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com">Sunil
Ramalingam</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 22, 2013 6:03 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="vision2020@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>
; <a rel="nofollow" title="godshatter@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>
</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice</div>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:small;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri';FONT-WEIGHT:normal;COLOR:#000000;FONT-STYLE:normal;TEXT-DECORATION:none;DISPLAY:inline;">
<div dir="ltr">Disservice to Zimmerman? He killed a kid
because he's a dumbshit cop wannabe, and you're concerned
about disservices to that sphincter?<br>
<br>
I didn't follow the case closely and I don't know if there
was enough evidence to convict. I won't criticize the
verdict because I would gladly take it if I were
Zimmerman's lawyer.<br>
<br>
But I think the cops did a poor job at the beginning and
that affected everything that followed. And anyone who
pretends race doesn't affect the criminal justice system
is full of crap.<br>
<br>
Sunil <br>
<br>
<hr>
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 16:47:10 -0700<br>
From: <a rel="nofollow" class="yiv4791372710ecxmoz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice<br>
To: <a rel="nofollow" class="yiv4791372710ecxmoz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a>; <a rel="nofollow" class="yiv4791372710ecxmoz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
<br>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:times new roman, new york, times, serif;COLOR:#000;BACKGROUND-COLOR:#fff;">I agree he should have gone home. I just don't
like the mis-characterization of him as some guy that
stalked Martin through the trees and murdered him in
cold blood only because he was black. That's a
disservice to Zimmerman, and it's only done because he
had the gall to be carrying a handgun on his person in a
political environment where gun control is all the rage,
and because he wasn't charged with second degree murder
immediately (through no fault of his own). Oh, and
because everyone wants to think of him as white, and
therefore "entitled".<br>
<br>
So let me ask you, do you think there was sufficient
evidence to convict Zimmerman on second degree murder
charges? Did the jury, in your personal opinion, show
systemic racism in their verdict? Also, do you think
"white guy stalks and guns down innocent black teenager"
is a fair summary of the events that happened that
night?<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<div><span><br>
</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:times new roman, new york, times, serif;">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:times new roman, new york, times, serif;">
<div dir="ltr">
<hr size="1">
<font face="Arial" size="2"><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">From:</span></b>
Sunil Ramalingam
<a rel="nofollow" class="yiv4791372710ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com"><sunilramalingam@hotmail.com></a><br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">To:</span></b>
<a rel="nofollow" class="yiv4791372710ecxmoz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a> <br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Monday, July 22, 2013 4:25 PM<br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice<br>
</font></div>
<div class="yiv4791372710ecxy_msg_container">
<div> </div>
<div id="yiv4791372710ecxyiv0781227224">
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<div>
<div dir="ltr">Paul,<br>
<br>
Your defense of Zimmerman stopped being
outlandish last week; you're well beyond
that now.<br>
<br>
I don't think you should use 'meme' to
describe what others are saying until you
comprehend that Zimmerman should have
listened to the dispatcher and gone home.
This happened because he had a gun; if he
didn't he would have gone home.<br>
<br>
He had called 911; he was done.<br>
<br>
Sunil<br>
<br>
<hr>
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 11:42:56 -0700<br>
From: <a rel="nofollow" class="yiv4791372710ecxmoz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a><br>
To: <a rel="nofollow" class="yiv4791372710ecxmoz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:rhayes@frontier.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:rhayes@frontier.com">rhayes@frontier.com</a>;
<a rel="nofollow" class="yiv4791372710ecxmoz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice<br>
<br>
<div>I respectfully disagree with your
conclusion. I don't think the jury
verdict is an example of systemic racism.
That was my original point. They just
didn't have the evidence needed to
convict. From looking at the evidence
myself, I support their decision. Race
doesn't enter into it, it's just a
conclusion based on the evidence.<br>
<br>
I do see two places where systemic racism
might have occurred:<br>
<br>
1. When the police decided not to arrest
Zimmerman at the very beginning. I'm
assuming the police didn't arrest him
because they didn't think they had a case,
which was born out by the not guilty
verdict. They probably should have
arrested him anyway and let the courts
figure that out, though. Maybe they didn't
arrest him because he was white/hispanic.
That's certainly possible. It's also
possible that it had more to do with the
fact that he knew them. That would be
cronyism, though.<br>
<br>
2. The other place where I see systemic
racism is in how the media and the liberal
community both are treating this case.
NBC doctored the 911 call at the very
beginning to make it look like racial
profiling, and everyone seems to have
jumped on that bandwagon. This didn't
have to be about race. The fact that it
became about race shows a large element of
systemic racism in our media and in many
other areas, including in political
circles. I've seen nothing to make me
think that Zimmerman targeted Martin
because he was black. Because he was
suspicious, sure. Because he was a
teenager, maybe. But not because of his
race.<br>
<br>
I also object, in a nice,
non-confrontational way, with your
characterization of people posting here
about the "rightness of the death of a boy
at the hands of a vigilante". I have
never said that Trayvon Martin should have
died, nor have I expressed an opinion
about whether or not I would think that a
good thing. I haven't seen anyone else do
so, either. I've just been trying to
express why I think the jury's verdict
made sense, and to counter the "white guy
stalks and guns down an innocent black
teenager" meme that, based on the
evidence, seems to be made out of whole
cloth.<br>
<br>
I do think that Martin should not have
attacked Zimmerman, if that is indeed what
happened. The evidence I've seen points
that way. I think it's tragic that he
died, especially since this whole
confrontation could have easily been
avoided by both Martin and Zimmerman.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<div><span><br>
</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<hr size="1">
<font face="Arial" size="2"><b><span>From:</span></b>
<a rel="nofollow" class="yiv4791372710ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto="mailto:rhayes@frontier.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:rhayes@frontier.com">"rhayes@frontier.com"</a>
<a rel="nofollow" class="yiv4791372710ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto="mailto:rhayes@frontier.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:rhayes@frontier.com"><rhayes@frontier.com></a><br>
<b><span>To:</span></b>
<a rel="nofollow" class="yiv4791372710ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">"vision2020@moscow.com"</a>
<a rel="nofollow" class="yiv4791372710ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><vision2020@moscow.com></a> <br>
<b><span>Sent:</span></b> Monday,
July 22, 2013 10:43 AM<br>
<b><span>Subject:</span></b>
[Vision2020] systemic injustice<br>
</font></div>
<div class="yiv4791372710ecxyiv0781227224ecxy_msg_container">
<div> </div>
<div id="yiv4791372710ecxyiv0781227224ecxyiv4732805277">
<div>
<div>
<div><span>To those who insist
on posting the rightness
of the death of a boy at
the hands of a vigilante,
I post a soft spoken
message. And I would
remind you that your words
may be hurtful...</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div>I live in a bubble far
removed from the rest of the
country and my past. When,
as a young man, I moved to
Moscow from just north of
the Mason-Dixon line, I was
relieved to be free from all
the issues of race. Yea, I'm
white. Privileged by my
birth. As a kid, race and
ethnicity were overwhelming
to me. Italians hated the
Irish, Poles were disliked
and distrusted by almost
everyone. The blacks didn't
like whites in general.
Whites distrusted blacks.
Everyone had names for
everyone <span id="yiv4791372710ecxyiv0781227224ecxyiv4732805277misspell-0" class="yiv4791372710ecxyiv0781227224ecxyiv4732805277mark">else's</span> ethnicity.
Whops, spics, <span id="yiv4791372710ecxyiv0781227224ecxyiv4732805277misspell-1" class="yiv4791372710ecxyiv0781227224ecxyiv4732805277mark">hunkies</span>, kikes,
hillbillies... the list of
derogatory names goes on and
on. </div>
<div><span>I was despised
because of being sometimes
Irish, sometimes a sort of
<span id="yiv4791372710ecxyiv0781227224ecxyiv4732805277misspell-2">Polack.</span>
I learned to run and run
fast to keep from being
beaten up by what ever
group that happened to
cross my path. However, I
didn't see/understand
systemic racism until our
Boy Scout troop tried to
go swimming in the CITY
pool. They stopped us
because we were an
integrated troop. Being
young I never stopped to
think why there never were
black kids in the
pool...EVER. The man that
stopped us was a "greasy"
(another derogatory
slur)Greek with kinky hair
and a pretty dark
complexion. He stopped
Jerome with his arm
saying, "Not You!" Our
scout master must have
known what he was up to,
and to this day I hold him
in high esteem as a brave
and principled man. And
when that Greek guy
stopped him from entering
the locker, I looked at
Jerome, and maybe for the
first time saw him as a
black kid with whom I had
camped, sang, cooked
dinners, and saw what his
life entailed. It was much
more than name calling,
being hated, distrusted.
It was a system of hatred.
</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>Back to the bubble
thing...</span></div>
<div>So I moved here and left
ethnicity and race issues
behind. Well, not really. It
isn't so much an issue here
because the majority, the
vast majority of people are
white, like me. It is
inevitable that this will
change. It is already
changing and changing
rapidly. How will this area
deal with race and
ethnicity? There are hate
groups and hateful people
conveniently located nearby.
We need to be vigilant with
our communities, and with
ourselves. It is convenient
to be blind to the hatred
surrounding us. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>I suppose one good thing
that the so called "jury" in
Florida proved is that
SYSTEMIC racism still
exists. I sometimes forget
that. I live in a bubble.
Now I am reminded, but
should a young man's life be
sacrificed so that I would
again see? People who deny
that injustice exists live
in a state of blind shame.
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
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