[Vision2020] systemic injustice

Paul Rumelhart godshatter at yahoo.com
Mon Jul 22 18:23:00 PDT 2013 

Look, it's simple.

Joe admonished me for using a comment that no one here would say or had 
said.

I acknowledged that my comment had racial overtones that I had been 
using to summarize what some people and the media had been saying.

I then replaced it with a comment (yours) that did not have a racial 
component and that had the advantage of being an actual quote.  Joe can 
no longer admonish me for using a comment that no one would say.

You then (because I worded it poorly) came to the conclusion that I was 
somehow calling you out for being racist.  Which was not the case.

Clear?

Paul


On 07/22/2013 06:06 PM, Moscow Cares wrote:
> Mr. Rumelhart . . .
>
> You stated
>
> "The race stuff I added was in response to how everyone makes this 
> into a race issue."
>
> Then you go on to cite my comment.
>
> If my comment was not (as strongly suggested by your posting) making 
> this into a race issue, why cite it?
>
> Don't bother answering.  Your spin is making me dizzy.
>
> 'Nuff EFFING said!
>
> Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .
>
> "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
> http://www.MoscowCares.com
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
> "There's room at the top they are telling you still
> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>
> - John Lennon
>
>
> On Jul 22, 2013, at 5:53 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com 
> <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
>>
>> Did not say it was.  I said the race portion that I added to my 
>> earlier little summary was brought from a few different areas.  So 
>> then I went to find an actual quote from someone to use.  I was not 
>> trying to imply that that comment was racist.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> On 07/22/2013 05:28 PM, Tom Hansen wrote:
>>> How is my comment considered racist, Mr. Rumelhart!
>>>
>>> Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .
>>>
>>> "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
>>> http://www.MoscowCares.com
>>> Tom Hansen
>>> Moscow, Idaho
>>>
>>> "There's room at the top they are telling you still
>>> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
>>> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>>>
>>> - John Lennon
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 22, 2013, at 5:21 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com 
>>> <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Fine.  The race stuff I added was in response to how everyone makes 
>>>> this into a race issue.  Here is a quote from Tom Hansen:
>>>>
>>>> "George Zimmerman, an armed 28-year old neighborhood watch, 
>>>> follows, shoots and kills Trayvon Martin, a 17-year old boy (armed 
>>>> with Skittles) who lives in the neighborhood in which he was killed."
>>>>
>>>> Is that a fair characterization of the events that transpired that 
>>>> night?
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> On 07/22/2013 05:13 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:
>>>>> No one is characterizing the issue the way you did below. You 
>>>>> should have more care and respect for others when talking about 
>>>>> this issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 22, 2013, at 4:47 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com 
>>>>> <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree he should have gone home.  I just don't like the 
>>>>>> mis-characterization of him as some guy that stalked Martin 
>>>>>> through the trees and murdered him in cold blood only because he 
>>>>>> was black. That's a disservice to Zimmerman, and it's only done 
>>>>>> because he had the gall to be carrying a handgun on his person in 
>>>>>> a political environment where gun control is all the rage, and 
>>>>>> because he wasn't charged with second degree murder immediately 
>>>>>> (through no fault of his own).  Oh, and because everyone wants to 
>>>>>> think of him as white, and therefore "entitled".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So let me ask you, do you think there was sufficient evidence to 
>>>>>> convict Zimmerman on second degree murder charges?  Did the jury, 
>>>>>> in your personal opinion, show systemic racism in their verdict?  
>>>>>> Also, do you think "white guy stalks and guns down innocent black 
>>>>>> teenager" is a fair summary of the events that happened that night?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> *From:* Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>>
>>>>>> *To:* vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, July 22, 2013 4:25 PM
>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your defense of Zimmerman stopped being outlandish last week; 
>>>>>> you're well beyond that now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think you should use 'meme' to describe what others are 
>>>>>> saying until you comprehend that Zimmerman should have listened 
>>>>>> to the dispatcher and gone home. This happened because he had a 
>>>>>> gun; if he didn't he would have gone home.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He had called 911; he was done.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sunil
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 11:42:56 -0700
>>>>>> From: godshatter at yahoo.com <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>
>>>>>> To: rhayes at frontier.com <mailto:rhayes at frontier.com>; 
>>>>>> vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I respectfully disagree with your conclusion.  I don't think the 
>>>>>> jury verdict is an example of systemic racism.  That was my 
>>>>>> original point.  They just didn't have the evidence needed to 
>>>>>> convict.  From looking at the evidence myself, I support their 
>>>>>> decision.  Race doesn't enter into it, it's just a conclusion 
>>>>>> based on the evidence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do see two places where systemic racism might have occurred:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. When the police decided not to arrest Zimmerman at the very 
>>>>>> beginning.  I'm assuming the police didn't arrest him because 
>>>>>> they didn't think they had a case, which was born out by the not 
>>>>>> guilty verdict.  They probably should have arrested him anyway 
>>>>>> and let the courts figure that out, though. Maybe they didn't 
>>>>>> arrest him because he was white/hispanic.  That's certainly 
>>>>>> possible.  It's also possible that it had more to do with the 
>>>>>> fact that he knew them.  That would be cronyism, though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. The other place where I see systemic racism is in how the 
>>>>>> media and the liberal community both are treating this case.  NBC 
>>>>>> doctored the 911 call at the very beginning to make it look like 
>>>>>> racial profiling, and everyone seems to have jumped on that 
>>>>>> bandwagon.  This didn't have to be about race.  The fact that it 
>>>>>> became about race shows a large element of systemic racism in our 
>>>>>> media and in many other areas, including in political circles. 
>>>>>> I've seen nothing to make me think that Zimmerman targeted Martin 
>>>>>> because he was black.  Because he was suspicious, sure.  Because 
>>>>>> he was a teenager, maybe. But not because of his race.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also object, in a nice, non-confrontational way, with your 
>>>>>> characterization of people posting here about the "rightness of 
>>>>>> the death of a boy at the hands of a vigilante".  I have never 
>>>>>> said that Trayvon Martin should have died, nor have I expressed 
>>>>>> an opinion about whether or not I would think that a good thing.  
>>>>>> I haven't seen anyone else do so, either.  I've just been trying 
>>>>>> to express why I think the jury's verdict made sense, and to 
>>>>>> counter the "white guy stalks and guns down an innocent black 
>>>>>> teenager" meme that, based on the evidence, seems to be made out 
>>>>>> of whole cloth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do think that Martin should not have attacked Zimmerman, if 
>>>>>> that is indeed what happened.  The evidence I've seen points that 
>>>>>> way.  I think it's tragic that he died, especially since this 
>>>>>> whole confrontation could have easily been avoided by both Martin 
>>>>>> and Zimmerman.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> *From:* "rhayes at frontier.com <mailto:rhayes at frontier.com>" 
>>>>>> <rhayes at frontier.com <mailto:rhayes at frontier.com>>
>>>>>> *To:* "vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>" 
>>>>>> <vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>>
>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, July 22, 2013 10:43 AM
>>>>>> *Subject:* [Vision2020] systemic injustice
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To those who insist on posting the rightness of the death of a 
>>>>>> boy at the hands of a vigilante, I post a soft spoken message. 
>>>>>> And I would remind you that your words may be hurtful...
>>>>>> I live in a bubble far removed from the rest of the country and 
>>>>>> my past. When, as a young man, I moved to Moscow from just north 
>>>>>> of the Mason-Dixon line, I was relieved to be free from all the 
>>>>>> issues of race. Yea, I'm white. Privileged by my birth. As a kid, 
>>>>>> race and ethnicity were overwhelming to me. Italians hated the 
>>>>>> Irish, Poles were disliked and distrusted by almost everyone. The 
>>>>>> blacks didn't like whites in general. Whites distrusted blacks. 
>>>>>> Everyone had names for everyone else's ethnicity. Whops, spics, 
>>>>>> hunkies, kikes, hillbillies... the list of derogatory names goes 
>>>>>> on and on.
>>>>>> I was despised because of being sometimes Irish, sometimes a sort 
>>>>>> of Polack. I learned to run and run fast to keep from being 
>>>>>> beaten up by what ever group that happened to cross my path. 
>>>>>> However, I didn't see/understand systemic racism until our Boy 
>>>>>> Scout troop tried to go swimming in the CITY pool. They stopped 
>>>>>> us because we were an integrated troop. Being young I never 
>>>>>> stopped to think why there never were black kids in the 
>>>>>> pool...EVER. The man that stopped us was a "greasy" (another 
>>>>>> derogatory slur)Greek with kinky hair and a pretty dark 
>>>>>> complexion. He stopped Jerome with his arm saying, "Not You!" Our 
>>>>>> scout master must have known what he was up to, and to this day I 
>>>>>> hold him in high esteem as a brave and principled man. And when 
>>>>>> that Greek guy stopped him from entering the locker, I looked at 
>>>>>> Jerome, and maybe for the first time saw him as a black kid with 
>>>>>> whom I had camped, sang, cooked dinners, and saw what his life 
>>>>>> entailed. It was much more than name calling, being hated, 
>>>>>> distrusted. It was a system of hatred.
>>>>>> Back to the bubble thing...
>>>>>> So I moved here and left ethnicity and race issues behind. Well, 
>>>>>> not really. It isn't so much an issue here because the majority, 
>>>>>> the vast majority of people are white, like me. It is inevitable 
>>>>>> that this will change. It is already changing and changing 
>>>>>> rapidly. How will this area deal with race and ethnicity? There 
>>>>>> are hate groups and hateful people conveniently located nearby. 
>>>>>> We need to be vigilant with our communities, and with ourselves. 
>>>>>> It is convenient to be blind to the hatred surrounding us.
>>>>>> I suppose one good thing that the so called "jury" in Florida 
>>>>>> proved is that SYSTEMIC racism still exists. I sometimes forget 
>>>>>> that. I live in a bubble. Now I am reminded, but should a young 
>>>>>> man's life be sacrificed so that I would again see? People who 
>>>>>> deny that injustice exists live in a state of blind shame.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>>>> http://www.fsr.net
>>>>>>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ======================================================= List 
>>>>>> services made available by First Step Internet, serving the 
>>>>>> communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net 
>>>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com 
>>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>>>
>>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>>>> http://www.fsr.net <http://www.fsr.net/>
>>>>>>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>>>
>>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>>>> http://www.fsr.net
>>>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>> =======================================================
>>>>
>>>> =======================================================
>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>> http://www.fsr.net
>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> =======================================================
>>
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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