[Vision2020] [link added] We, Intoleristas . . .
Joe Campbell
philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Tue Jan 1 01:57:14 PST 2013
You're right Gary. I was wrong to drag you into this. I think our recent conversations on the V have been fine. Sorry for my comments about you. Joe
On Dec 31, 2012, at 8:18 PM, "Gary Crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
> ."I'm ready to talk and I can talk without insulting anyone. Can either of you? Is it even possible for Scott, Paul, or Gary to have a conversation without insulting someone, or making the kinds of unsupported general claims in these two posts? This is not an insult, it is a challenge."
>
> And yet it came across as vaguely insulting none the less. Looking back through the posts directed to you from me on this topic I see no insults (or unsupported claims for that matter) anywhere, certainly none that were intended. Considering some of our previous discussions from times gone by, I have tried very hard to avoid setting off the chain of events that inevitably leads to the usual dreary outcome. Since you contend that there is insult in my every conversation, it should be easy to provide the examples from my last ten conversations with you. Do that, and I'll readily admit my error and apologize, I really don't believe that you can.
>
> I must say that in a post where you take others to task for their being overly general and not providing sufficient examples to back up assertions, you seem to paint with an unusually broad brush and your specificity is woefully lacking.
>
> One last thing, lumping me in with Paul and Scott has got to be lowering their self-esteem. Is that intentional?
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> From: Joe Campbell
> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 1:53 PM
> To: Scott Dredge
> Cc: viz
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [link added] We, Intoleristas . . .
>
> Scott,
>
> Can you give some specific examples? Or is it just enough to say "This is happening"?
>
> Wilson says "But they would rather not talk at all, and so they resort quite quickly to the instruments of harassment and coercion" to which Scott responds "This is happening."
>
> Please support your claim. If "they" -- meaning progressives, liberals, or Intoleristas -- "resort quickly to the instruments of harassment and coercion" you must have plenty of cases to back up your claim, enough to support the claim that "they" are doing, as opposed to a select few. Please give those examples and make sure you have enough of them to support this very general, over-the-top claim.
>
> Or maybe Paul could provide evidence backing up this claim: "I would like to point out that it's the liberals on this list (or 'Intoleristas', if you prefer) that come across as the most dogmatic of the two main groups on this list (Intoleristas/liberals vs. conservatives/Christ Church members)." Come across as dogmatic to whom? And how many liberals come across as dogmatic? Why not name 10 since there are enough, on your view to make such a general claim.
>
> Paul also writes: "It was the Intoleristas that spent a lot of time and effort trying to convince me that boycotting businesses run by Christ Church members wasn't somehow intolerant of another religion." Please be sure to name the Intoleristas that "spent a lot of time and effort trying to convince" you to boycott Christ Church businesses? Be specific. Name enough of them to justify this slander of a whole group of people who happen to disagree with your views.
>
> And of course "No conservative has ever told [you, Paul] that [you] shouldn't make posts of a certain type." Why should they? You are there mouthpiece.
>
> The two posts are ironic because I've posted a slew of questions about gun control over the last few weeks, asking some straightforward questions and trying to engage in thoughtful discussion. None of the questions received any serious answers. There were some sarcastic posts by Paul but no serious attempt to engage in discussion.
>
> I've refuted several arguments given by conservatives on this these issues but guess what? Conservatives keep using those bad arguments anyway, without attempting to respond to them. I can't count the times that Paul or Gary or others, for instance, have jumped from "let's talk about gun control" to "let's ban all firearms."
>
> I'm ready to talk and I can talk without insulting anyone. Can either of you? Is it even possible for Scott, Paul, or Gary to have a conversation without insulting someone, or making the kinds of unsupported general claims in these two posts? This is not an insult, it is a challenge.
>
> Joe
>
> On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 1:00 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> It's got some substance Dr. Gier, you just need to cut through a lot of Doug's crap to see some of it:
>>
>> <Everything goes great in this world of monochrome diversity until someone actually disagrees with them in their town>
>> This happened.
>>
>> <They cannot handle disagreement and debate, and so to the extent that they have to talk at all they resort immediately to shrill invective.>
>> This is still happening and you can see it in the threads about 'gun control & the NRA' and 'global warming'.
>>
>> <But they would rather not talk at all, and so they resort quite quickly to the instruments of harassment and coercion.>
>> This is happening.
>>
>> <This is what has happened in every place in the world where they have had their way.>
>> This is true. Might makes right. We're lucky to live in a country where individual rights are protected against mob rule.
>>
>> <These people we are up against are as intolerant as it gets. While I grant they are not as dangerous as they used to be, they are certainly as noisy as they used to be.>
>> Intolerance cuts both ways. Atheists can be just as intolerant and Fundy religious types. Again, we're lucky to live in a country where individual rights are protected against mob rule.
>>
>> As for your comment that <[Doug's] is a very narrow world indeed>, I agree with this as it's quite obvious. Even so, Doug and his gullible flock deserve the exact same Constitutional rights and protections as everyone else even though they doesn't believe in the Constitution and do not believe in an egalitarian society.
>>
>> <Happy New Year to all beings> I couldn't agree more. :)
>>
>> -Scott
>>
>> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 10:45:59 -0800
>> From: ngier at uidaho.edu
>> To: moscowcares at moscow.com
>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [link added] We, Intoleristas . . .
>>
>> Hi Tom,
>>
>> Thanks for posting this. I had not read it either before now. It is vintage Wilson--all rhetoric and sarcasm with little substance. Much like his papers for my philosophy classes.
>>
>> Some time ago a Kirker accused me of being a "Hindu-Lover," or something like that. I had to inform him that I have supported four Indians for their studies: one Christian who is now practicing psychotherapy in Australia, one Hindu for his art career, and a man and wife team (both devout Christians). My Hindu friends may have good reason to charge that I'm a "Christian-lover."
>>
>> The husband just finished his Ph.D. at the University of Denver on the psychology of being a Christian untouchable. (I thought that they did not exist.) It was a brilliant analysis that gained him a dissertation prize of $2,000. The wife just graduated summa cum laude from the School of Nursing and the University of Houston.
>>
>> I had a great weekend celebrating with them (Indian food at every meal) and a wonderful church service for Telegu-speaking Christians. What a change when they switched from the stodgy English hymns to the ones in Telegu. The tamborines and tabla came out, and I was able sing along because an IT guy projected the phonetic equivalents on a screen. A weekend of total immersion in Indian culture that will never be forgotten.
>>
>> Wilson praises that fact that many, but not as many as he implies, Latin Americans have converted to Pentecostal Christianity. (The highest percentage of them in coffee producing countries is 20 percent in Gautemala.) As he does with his right hand, he calls American Pentecostals less than Christian on the left. (I can play the right and left hand game as well as he can.) There is absolutely no healing, speaking in tongues, prophesying, and holy rolling at Christ Church.
>>
>> The only foreign travel Doug Wilson did was on U.S. subs. He doesn't have a clue what multiculturalism is or what seasoned travelers experience and learn in foreign lands. His is a very narrow world indeed.
>>
>> Happy New Year to all beings,
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>> A society grows great when old men plant the seeds of trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.
>>
>> -Greek proverb
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com on behalf of Moscow Cares
>> Sent: Sun 12/30/2012 5:40 PM
>> To: Joe Campbell
>> Cc: viz
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [link added] We, Intoleristas . . .
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------
>>
>> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>>
>> "Moscow Cares"
>> http://www.MoscowCares.com
>>
>> Tom Hansen
>> Moscow, Idaho
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> http://www.fsr.net
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>
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