[Vision2020] Fwd: Dorner and Gun Control

Wed Feb 13 04:10:00 PST 2013

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 7:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Dorner and Gun Control
To: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>

@Matt,

You raise an important point about mental health, and especially with
respect to veterans.

Just yesterday a report appeared in the media showing that recent veterans
commit suicide at over twice the rate of the general population.

But mental health is a complex subject, and like many other things is not
black an white.  There is a difference between the person who occasionally
binge drinks because of depression problems and someone who machine guns
down a crowd of people because he thinks they are space aliens after
him/her.

The definitions of various mental health problems constantly change as new
information emerges.  Accuracy in diagnosis and effectiveness of treatment
are not near the 100% level.  At present we have no way of identifying with
assurance who is mentally fit to own a firearm and who is not except for
some very extreme cases, and then, how to find them, and then the
constitutional problems involved in mandatory treatment, incarceration, and
denial of gun ownership are difficult issues.

We need to spend more money on mental health research and treatment, but
where will that money come from given the inability of legislatures to deal
with debt, taxes, and tax reform, let alone their scientific/factual
ignorance (nurtured by the GOP as almost a platform item).

Any discussion of homicide and mass homicide by rifles/pistols/etc/firearms
needs to address mental health, but at this time with our state of
knowledge and our unwillingness to deal realistically and comprehensibly
with mental health issues, it is not a panacea for the ongoing spate of
senseless mass homicides.

w.

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 3:40 AM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>wrote:

> Thanks for the comments -- Jeff (which I agree with totally) and Matt. As
> Jeff suggested, I'd have been better off leaving out the gun control
> issues, so I'll do that for now!
>
> My apologies to the LAPD. I didn't mean to demean them. My point was --
> rather -- even skilled, respected officers can make mistakes. Thus, guns
> are dangerous. It is really so hard to accept that guns are dangerous? Can
> we all just accept that and continue the debate from that point? Or do I
> have to argue that guns are dangerous?
>
> Certainly how folks are raised and mental health have something to do with
> gun violence, too. But how much control do we have over how people are
> raised? Do you want to pass laws to ensure that parents raise their
> children correctly? That seems wrong. Should we incarcerate the insane?
> Fine. Get the taxes to fund it. Democrats can't. Maybe we can put the
> insane in prison. We seem to be willing to pay for that. You've spotted the
> problems, perhaps, but what is the solution?
>
> Either you think gun violence is a problem or you don't. I think it is a
> problem. Then the matter is how to deal with it. You say the problem is bad
> parenting or insanity. Others say video games. But does that tell us how to
> deal with it? Can we keep the number and accessibility of guns the same,
> but get rid of video games, and then the problem will go away? Of course
> you don't think that. Nor did you suggest it. But what did you suggest? How
> do you think we should solve this social problem of gun violence? Or do you
> think it is not a problem?
>
> Thanks and hope you are well Matt -- and Jeff.
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 12:08 AM, Matt Decker <mattd2107 at hotmail.com>wrote:
>
>>  Granted it's late, but a couple of thoughts Joe.
>>
>> -LAPD? Really? I have a couple of good friends on the force down there.
>> To imply that the majority of the boys in blue are nothing but humble and
>> unselfish is downright degrading.
>>
>> -Any gun in the wrong hands creates mayhem. It doesn't matter what type.
>>
>> -what guns? Pistols? Or the AR 15s that killed about 300 last year.
>> 11,000 killed last year.
>>
>> -When will we look at society and how we are raised instead of blaiming
>> everyone else. Raise your kids proper.
>>
>> -Mental health
>>
>> -Just imagine if a pissed off ex-cop can do this, what would a battalion
>> of former Marines do when they get pissed? Lack of VA support and taking
>> away the rights they fought for.
>>
>> -How is it that no one on this site ever talked about Chris Kyle? The guy
>> is a hero and yet not one  post? Whitney Houston gets half mass, but not
>> Kyle?
>>
>> Granted Joe, not all these are addressed to you but just venting.
>>
>>
>> That's it for now.
>>
>> MD
>> ------------------------------
>> Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 22:02:18 -0800
>> From: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> Subject: [Vision2020] Dorner and Gun Control
>>
>>
>> I'm watching the Dorner episode unfold and reading the V2020 posts, and
>> it is pretty clear no one knows what is happening at this point. Is he
>> dead? Not clear now, according to CNN.
>>
>> Keep in mind that this one man with a few guns worked skilled, trained
>> police officers into a frenzy. How many innocent victims were shot? I don't
>> remember.
>>
>> But what I do know is that skilled, trained police officers with guns are
>> a menace -- under the right unfortunate circumstances. People blame the
>> cops but what would you do? How would you react to a situation in which you
>> were a target? I'm guessing, not very well. Me either.
>>
>> And you say guns are safe? If they are in the right hands? What hands are
>> those? Not the LA police.
>>
>> Guns are always a risk. That's why gun control is worthy of
>> consideration. Even skilled, trained police officers can be a menace if the
>> circumstances are unforgiving.
>>
>> ======================================================= List services
>> made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the
>> Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com=======================================================
>>
>
>
> =======================================================
>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>                http://www.fsr.net
>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>

-- 
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
art.deco.studios at gmail.com

-- 
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
art.deco.studios at gmail.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20130213/dfeadd64/attachment.html>