<div dir="ltr"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: <b class="gmail_sendername">Art Deco</b> <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 7:09 AM<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Dorner and Gun Control<br>To: Joe Campbell <<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br><br><br><div dir="ltr"><div><div>
<div><div><div><div>@Matt,<br><br></div>You raise an important point about mental health, and especially with respect to veterans.<br><br></div>Just yesterday a report appeared in the media showing that recent veterans commit suicide at over twice the rate of the general population.<br>
<br></div>But mental health is a complex subject, and like many other things is not black an white. There is a difference between the person who occasionally binge drinks because of depression problems and someone who machine guns down a crowd of people because he thinks they are space aliens after him/her.<br>
<br></div>The definitions of various mental health problems constantly change as new information emerges. Accuracy in diagnosis and effectiveness of treatment are not near the 100% level. At present we have no way of identifying with assurance who is mentally fit to own a firearm and who is not except for some very extreme cases, and then, how to find them, and then the constitutional problems involved in mandatory treatment, incarceration, and denial of gun ownership are difficult issues.<br>
<br></div>We need to spend more money on mental health research and treatment, but where will that money come from given the inability of legislatures to deal with debt, taxes, and tax reform, let alone their scientific/factual ignorance (nurtured by the GOP as almost a platform item).<br>
<br></div>Any discussion of homicide and mass homicide by rifles/pistols/etc/firearms needs to address mental health, but at this time with our state of knowledge and our unwillingness to deal realistically and comprehensibly with mental health issues, it is not a panacea for the ongoing spate of senseless mass homicides.<br>
<br>w.<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div><div class="h5"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 3:40 AM, Joe Campbell <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Thanks for the comments -- Jeff (which I agree with totally) and Matt. As Jeff suggested, I'd have been better off leaving out the gun control issues, so I'll do that for now!<br>
<br>My apologies to the LAPD. I didn't mean to demean them. My point was -- rather -- even skilled, respected officers can make mistakes. Thus, guns are dangerous. It is really so hard to accept that guns are dangerous? Can we all just accept that and continue the debate from that point? Or do I have to argue that guns are dangerous?<br>
<br>Certainly how folks are raised and mental health have something to do with gun violence, too. But how much control do we have over how people are raised? Do you want to pass laws to ensure that parents raise their children correctly? That seems wrong. Should we incarcerate the insane? Fine. Get the taxes to fund it. Democrats can't. Maybe we can put the insane in prison. We seem to be willing to pay for that. You've spotted the problems, perhaps, but what is the solution?<br>
<br>Either you think gun violence is a problem or you don't. I think it is a problem. Then the matter is how to deal with it. You say the problem is bad parenting or insanity. Others say video games. But does that tell us how to deal with it? Can we keep the number and accessibility of guns the same, but get rid of video games, and then the problem will go away? Of course you don't think that. Nor did you suggest it. But what did you suggest? How do you think we should solve this social problem of gun violence? Or do you think it is not a problem?<br>
<br>Thanks and hope you are well Matt -- and Jeff.<div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 12:08 AM, Matt Decker <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mattd2107@hotmail.com" target="_blank">mattd2107@hotmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div dir="ltr">
Granted it's late, but a couple of thoughts Joe.<br> <br>-LAPD? Really? I have a couple of good friends on the force down there. To imply that the majority of the boys in blue are nothing but humble and unselfish is downright degrading.<br>
<br>-Any gun in the wrong hands creates mayhem. It doesn't matter what type.<br> <br>-what guns? Pistols? Or the AR 15s that killed about 300 last year. 11,000 killed last year.<br> <br>-When will we look at society and how we are raised instead of blaiming everyone else. Raise your kids proper.<br>
<br>-Mental health<br> <br>-Just imagine if a pissed off ex-cop can do this, what would a battalion of former Marines do when they get pissed? Lack of VA support and taking away the rights they fought for. <br> <br>-How is it that no one on this site ever talked about Chris Kyle? The guy is a hero and yet not one post? Whitney Houston gets half mass, but not Kyle?<br>
<br>Granted Joe, not all these are addressed to you but just venting.<br> <br> <br>That's it for now.<br> <br>MD<br><div><div></div><hr>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 22:02:18 -0800<br>From: <a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>Subject: [Vision2020] Dorner and Gun Control<div><div><br><br>I'm watching the Dorner episode unfold and reading the V2020 posts, and it is pretty clear no one knows what is happening at this point. Is he dead? Not clear now, according to CNN.<br>
<br>Keep in mind that this one man with a few guns worked skilled, trained police officers into a frenzy. How many innocent victims were shot? I don't remember.<br>
<br>But what I do know is that skilled, trained police officers with guns are a menace -- under the right unfortunate circumstances. People blame the cops but what would you do? How would you react to a situation in which you were a target? I'm guessing, not very well. Me either.<br>
<br>And you say guns are safe? If they are in the right hands? What hands are those? Not the LA police.<br><br>Guns are always a risk. That's why gun control is worthy of consideration. Even skilled, trained police officers can be a menace if the circumstances are unforgiving.<br>
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