[Vision2020] Fw: Re[2]: Are you REALLY a libertarian?
Joe Campbell
philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Mon Aug 26 21:23:20 PDT 2013
Some further comments on your comments, Roger. And thanks for sharing.
"I do think that government has a right to promote a stable society or
family values"
If you could find in Mill some comment about "family values" in relation to
government regulation, I'd be interested.
"My grandkids when they are with their dad, watch Psycho and other
violent or twisted movies."
You are confusing art with rhetoric. Good art tries to inform, not
persuade. Psycho is one of the greatest films of all time. It is #1 in the
American Film Institutes most thrilling films, #18 on AFI's Greatest
American Films, and #30 on IMDb's best films list (as ranked by viewers).
There is little evidence that violent art influences violent action. Maybe
you know differently. And your evidence in rebuttal would be ...
"I think that government should promote self reliance. ... Government
should take care of those that are unable to help themselves."
I agree.
"There are a way too many rules and regulation."
As I noted in the previous reply, I agree.
"The free market should dominate. Any rules and regulation should be to see
that every one has an equal opportunity."
With the first claim, I disagree. This strikes me as a very philosophical
stance. Why have faith in the free market? I just don't get it. Thus far,
the free market has gotten us fast food, pollution, global warming, and
(recently) bad education. I don't see how we are benefiting, though I'm
open to arguments otherwise.
I should clarify. Actually I am in favor of a GENUINELY free market but we
don't have that. A genuinely free market would be free of government
subsidies and benefits of any kind. But we don't have that. Businesses get
all kinds of government benefits: tax relief etc. So if we could cut that
crap, that pork, I'd be in favor of a (genuinely) free market. Let them pay
their taxes (like the rest of us) and go on their own and see if they can
make it. Let the people decide what they want. Maybe that could work. Who
knows since we've never tried. If the deal is that businesses have to make
it in a GENUINELY free market, then government help of any kind -- even in
the form of tax relief -- should be out. Would you favor that plan? If not,
you're not really in favor of a free market. If not, then what you favor is
big business and not a free market.
I'm left thinking that I am far more of a libertarian than you or any Idaho
Republican could ever be.
On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 5:38 PM, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
>
>
> ------------------------------
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>
> To: "Joe Campbell" <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> Cc: "Moscow Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>, "Paul Rumelhart" <
> godshatter at yahoo.com>, "Nicholas Gier" <ngier006 at gmail.com>
> Date: 08/24/13 17:43
> Subject: Re[2]: [Vision2020] Are you REALLY a libertarian?
>
>
>
> Joe
>
> As Nick pointed out an Anarchist believes inn no government. This in
> impractical as it would result in the bully or the most powerful
> dominating. A Libertarian ( Classical Liberal) would generally adhere to
> the precepts outlined by John Stuart Mill. You should have the freedom do
> do as you please so long as it does not interfere with some one else. In
> other words your freedom to swing your fist ends at my nose. I do not
> consider myself a pure Libertarian as defined by Nick. While I am in
> general agreement, I do think that government has a right to promote a
> stable society or family values. I do not like all of the violent video
> games and movies. I think that they are harmful to young people and should
> be restricted to adults only. I support " The Parents TV Council"l in their
> effort to keep violent and sexual programing away from kids. My grandkids
> when they are with their dad, watch Psycho and other violent or twisted
> movies. At our house they watch "Feature Films for Families".
>
>
>
> I think that government should promote self reliance. Read Clarence
> Thomas's autobiography. Government should take care of those that are
> unable to help themselves. Even the disable are able to do some work. When
> I was with Carnation and Manapo, we had the disabled package our " Small
> World" bird feed line. Those folks wanted to work.
>
> There are a way too many rules and regulation. The free market should
> dominate. Any rules and regulation should be to see that every one has an
> equal opportunity. Some rules are necissary to protect the general welfare,
> such as food safety. I support more food inspections and regulations to
> protect the food supply.
>
> Roger
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Joe Campbell" <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> To: lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>
> Cc: "Nicholas Gier" <ngier006 at gmail.com>, "Paul Rumelhart" <
> godshatter at yahoo.com>, "Moscow Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Date: 08/24/13 14:53
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Are you REALLY a libertarian?
>
> Which would you keep and why?
>
> On Aug 24, 2013, at 2:51 PM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> What is it then? Which
>
> On Aug 24, 2013, at 1:48 PM, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Nick
> I don't think that any Libertarian wants to get rid of all government
> programs. Libertarian is not synonomus with Anarchist.
> Roger
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Are you REALLY a libertarian?
> From: "Nicholas Gier"
> To: "Paul Rumelhart"
> Date: 08/24/13 08:29:22
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> Do you really want to get rid of all federal programs? You are talking Tea
> Party when you claim to know what the Constitution means, just as
> fundamentalists claim to know what God's will is.
>
> Perhaps you have forgotten that for over 200 years the Supreme Court, not
> individuals with their own private interpretations, has determined the
> meaning of the Constitution, and so far, very few federal programs have
> been declared unconstitutional.
>
> Just recently "activist" conservatives on the Court ruled that
> corporations are persons, something that the founders certainly did not
> intend. Some much for the phony theory of "originalism." The Constitution
> is obviously a "living" document.
>
> Please clarify your own definition of libertarianism and how it differs
> from the Tea Party folks.
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 10:23 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com<http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=godshatter@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
>> In what way does Libertarianism "strip the people of the right to
>> determine their own form of government and the society they wish to live
>> in"? You still vote the same way, the rules of Congress are the same, etc.
>> Libertarians are for reducing the size of government back to what is
>> specified in the Constitution, leaving the rest to the states or the
>> individual. Is that what you are referring to?
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com<http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
>> >
>> *To:* Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>>;
>> Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com<http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=godshatter@yahoo.com>
>> >
>> *Cc:* Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com<http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=vision2020@moscow.com>
>> >
>> *Sent:* Friday, August 23, 2013 9:44 AM
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Are you REALLY a libertarian?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> My objection to Libertarianism is that it strips the people of the right
>> to determine their own form of government and the society they wish to live
>> in. It removes using the government as a means to solve a problem when
>> it may at times be the best or least costly solution.
>>
>> Donovan J. Arnold
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
>> >
>> *To:* Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com<http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=godshatter@yahoo.com>
>> >
>> *Cc:* Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com<http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=vision2020@moscow.com>
>> >
>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 22, 2013 7:07 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Are you REALLY a libertarian?
>>
>>
>> My opposition to libertarianism stems from my adherence to social
>> contract theory. We agree to uphold the laws of a particular society in
>> exchange for security. And vice versa: no security, no adherence to the
>> law.
>>
>> Social programs are justified from a purely pragmatic point of view.
>> Thus, libertarianism is false.
>>
>> On Aug 22, 2013, at 8:47 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com<http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=godshatter@yahoo.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree with this. Let's keep the brand name clean, so it doesn't get
>> taken over like the original Tea Party did.
>>
>> I do see a lot of pushback to Libertarianism by both Democrats and
>> Republicans, which makes me think they're on the right track.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com<http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>
>> >
>> *To:* Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com<http://index.html?_n%5Bp%5D%5Bmain%5D=win.main.tree&_n%5Bp%5D%5Bcontent%5D=mail.compose&to=vision2020@moscow.com>
>> >
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 21, 2013 5:19 PM
>> *Subject:* [Vision2020] Are you REALLY a libertarian?
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/08/30/773243/-Top-10-Signs-You-Might-Not-Be-A-Libertarian?detail=facebook#
>>
>>
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