[Vision2020] It's Time for an Honest Conversation About Marijuana . . .

Wed Aug 14 12:56:14 PDT 2013

In part, Scott wrote:

IMO, neither she nor anyone else should use the old 'felony on the record'
as an excuse for not being able to be a productive member of society.  It's
just not true.  Several members of my family have felony convictions and
have had no issue finding jobs, housing, and even loans.

Scott, while I'm really happy that's been the case for your family members,
they represent exceptions rather than the rule, something that's been
validated in study after study after study.  For instance, try reading the
Center for Economic and Policy Research's study entitled "Ex-Offenders and
the Labor Market," which is freely available here:

http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/ex-offenders-2010-11.pdf

An extensive body of research has established that a felony conviction or
time in prison makes individuals significantly less employable. This effect
is not simply that individuals who commit crimes were less likely to work in
the first place. Rather, the best available evidence suggests that felony
convictions or time in prison has an independent impact that further lowers
the employment prospects of ex-offenders. (p 2)

Employers reported that they were much less likely to hire ex-offenders. The
vast majority of employers (80 to 90 percent), for example, said that they
would 'definitely' or 'probably' hire "former welfare recipients, workers
with little recent work experience or lengthy unemployment, and other
stigmatizing characteristics" (Holzer, 2007, p. 14). By contrast, only about
40 percent of employers would 'definitely' or 'probably' hire applicants
with criminal records, especially for jobs that involved dealing with
customers or handling money.33  (p 10)

I could, of course, provide cite after cite, but I think you get the point.
And, while it's tempting to use anecdotal experiences to support one's
position, that doesn't trump validated facts, IMO.  Again, I'm glad your
family members haven't faced the employment and housing challenges that are
extremely common even amongst convicted felons who are highly motivated to
"go legit."

I'll also add that in another life, I had extensive property management
experience, both in the private sector and with HUD programs, and I can tell
you that more often than not, convicted felons have a very difficult time
finding housing if they don't have family or friends able to provide it at
no or reduced cost.  Without debating whether it's a good or bad thing, I
would encourage you to learn more about the difficulty paroled sex offenders
have finding housing (perhaps particularly in metropolitan areas) with
limits about how close they can live to things like schools, parks, day care
facilities, etc.  Personally, I find it extremely troubling when those
LE/PPO are supposed to be monitoring drop out of sight and out of society
into hidden tent cities & the like because they cannot find housing - I want
them where they can be monitored.

Scott also wrote:

I'm not even sure this lady should be working in the first place unless she
really, really wants to.  She has 4 kids to raise so IMO she should be
raising them.  This is why society has things like welfare to help out moms
saddled with kids from deadbeat dads.

I'm cutting you a lot of slack with the above because if I didn't know
better, I'd find that statement highly offensive  J  Personally, I would
never fault with any parent for wanting to improve the economic situation
for themselves and their children through education and gainful legal
employment rather than collecting welfare, which provides for only an
extremely limited existence.  Nor would I ever find fault for any parent
wanting to provide their children with a role model of industriousness
through sacrifice & hard work on the job.  I don't disagree that raising her
children must be a top priority, but I'm not at all convinced that
collecting welfare is an appropriate trade-off for the kinds of economic
opportunities she will most likely now be denied because she's a convicted
felon.

Saundra

From: Scott Dredge [mailto:scooterd408 at hotmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 2:50 PM
To: Saundra Lund; Sunil; viz
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] It's Time for an Honest Conversation About
Marijuana . . .

<my guess is they will provide cold comfort when she can't get a job, or
housing, or loans to further her education, etc. because she's now a
convicted felon.>
IMO, neither she nor anyone else should use the old 'felony on the record'
as an excuse for not being able to be a productive member of society.  It's
just not true.  Several members of my family have felony convictions and
have had no issue finding jobs, housing, and even loans.  The only
aberration is that I have one nephew who is presently on 2 years
unsupervised probation for petty theft (not a felony).  He has trouble
keeping jobs because he does things like steal gas from the company he's
working at or in some cases he flat out doesn't show up to work.  He's the
only person I've ever heard of who's been fired from McDonald's (no joke).

I'm not even sure this lady should be working in the first place unless she
really, really wants to.  She has 4 kids to raise so IMO she should be
raising them.  This is why society has things like welfare to help out moms
saddled with kids from deadbeat dads.

I'm not even sure that we're in that much disagreement on sentencing being
too harsh on this one.  Since she apparently plead guilty to whatever she
was being charged with (drug dealing I'm guessing, but I can't actually find
what she was specifically charged with), then she seems to have been socked
with whatever bad luck sentencing went her way be it by mandatory sentencing
terms or by some hangin' judge.  She was also sentenced to a couple of years
for possession and that ran concurrently.  I think the $31 piece of the
story is a distraction.  The law, if I could find any fricken details on
this case, probably does not mention dollar amount whatsoever and just deals
with the sheer volume and/or weight of the illegal substance.  I'm guessing
the same charge / sentencing would apply whether her price tag on the bag
was $3 or $3000.  Most everyone just latches onto to $31 figure which has no
(or very minor) relevance to the particular law being broken and subsequent
sentence handed down for breaking that law.

In terms of the death penalty, I used to be a staunch supporter of it but
after seeing so many cases where it has been misapplied due to over zealous
prosecutors, I've done a 180 on it an now oppose it.  Unlike Doug Wilson and
his flock, I reserve the right to change my opinion in light of new
information.

-Scott

  _____  

From: v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm
To: scooterd408 at hotmail.com; sunilramalingam at hotmail.com;
vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] It's Time for an Honest Conversation About
Marijuana . . .
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 13:57:54 -0700

Scott, I get the point you are trying to make in the first paragraph, but in
spite of the programs offered that she participated in while incarcerated,
my guess is they will provide cold comfort when she can't get a job, or
housing, or loans to further her education, etc. because she's now a
convicted felon.

For selling $30 of weed to a police informant.  With no previous criminal
convictions.

I understand that the issues aren't simple.  In spite of being a bleeding
heart liberal, I tend to be a pretty staunch law & order kind of gal
(although I'm vehemently opposed to the death penalty), particularly with
respect to violent & financial crimes.

However, the lofty notion of justice is near & dear to my heart, and I don't
think justice should depend on where in the US one lives.  A key component
to justice, it seems to me, is proportionality.

Spottedcrow's sentence - and all similar sentences with similar
circumstances- flunk.  They contain not an iota of justice because there's
absolutely no proportionality.  IMHO.

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
On Behalf Of Scott Dredge
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 11:46 AM
To: Sunil; viz
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] It's Time for an Honest Conversation About
Marijuana . . .

In this particular case, it's a a mixed bag regarding marijuana laws making
sense / working.  She sold a bag of marijuana which I'm guessing would be a
much worse offense than merely being in possession of it.  12 years for all
of her combined crimes is too much in my amateur opinion.  The 2 years she
served is probably too much.  On the upside, while incarcerated she
completed her GED and took parenting classes and participated in a few other
programs that were offered.  Hopefully she's come out of this experience as
more functional person.

I think if the marijuana laws are not making sense and not working, it might
be because marijuana is lumped into to the same category as say cocaine.
I'm not sure of the laws, but if this is the case, then marijuana should be
moved into some lesser category.  Even so, dealing it should carry a heavier
penalty than possessing it.

  _____  

From: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2013 05:35:13 -0700
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] It's Time for an Honest Conversation About
Marijuana . . .

Wayne,

Do you think our marijuana laws make sense or are working?

Sunil

  _____  

From: bear at moscow.com
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 18:37:58 -0700
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] It's Time for an Honest Conversation About
Marijuana . . .

Honest?  I think not!

Served 2 years in prison, not 12. 

On Aug 12, 2013, at 6:05 PM, Tom Hansen wrote:

<1146440_502299883171842_938877420_n.jpg>

Cannabis Nation

http://www.cannabisnationradio.com/

Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .

"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)

http://www.MoscowCares.com

Tom Hansen

Moscow, Idaho

"There's room at the top they are telling you still 

But first you must learn how to smile as you kill 
If you want to be like the folks on the hill."

- John Lennon

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