[Vision2020] Vision2020 is No Place for Open-Minded People

Thu Apr 4 13:02:01 PDT 2013

Although I did not videotape the debate, Nick . . .

As a result of a group effort, I do have audio recordings (mp3 format) of the interaction on January 31, 2007.

Has it really been SIX YEARS?

Part 1
http://www.tomandrodna.com/debates/Doug_Wilson_Nick_Gier_013107_01.mp3

Part 2
http://www.tomandrodna.com/debates/Doug_Wilson_Nick_Gier_013107_02.mp3

Part 3
http://www.tomandrodna.com/debates/Doug_Wilson_Nick_Gier_013107_03.mp3

Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .

"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
http://www.MoscowCares.com

Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho

"There's room at the top they are telling you still 
But first you must learn how to smile as you kill 
If you want to be like the folks on the hill."

- John Lennon

On Apr 4, 2013, at 10:42 AM, Nicholas Gier <ngier006 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Judd,
> 
> I welcome you to the Vision, because I enjoyed debating Doug Wilson and his followers when they posted in this forum.
> 
> I remember my last debate with Doug Wilson at the SUB five or six years ago late in January, and 15 minutes before the event was to end, and right in the middle of my rebuttal of Wilson's comments (all civil; Tom videotaped it), the moderator stopped the proceedings.  I objected, saying that there was still time and that the UI would certainly allow us to go later if needed, but the moderator insisted that the dialogue end.  
> 
> I still want to know why that happened. Perhaps it was because I was pressing Wilson too hard on the "principle" that is OK to lie and deceive to defend the faith.  Doug and I started our exchange on the Bible story of Rahab's lie (Jos. 2).  No one listening to the exchange could say that I was intolerant, mean, or uncivil.  All that I can conclude is that the student moderator thought that his hero was losing the debate.
> 
> There is no time limit on the Vision: most of us will be here until we draw our last breath.  Why did Wilson and Co. leave?  Was it because they simply could not defend their views?  Yes, the Vision becomes heated at times, but that is because of the passion that drives all of us who wish to express our views.
> 
> I don't think that it is premature to make some judgments about you. You say that Wilson and Bouma are "good men," but, since I debated Wilson about abortion in the early 1990s, I have found that he is intellectually dishonest and no one should trust him in a debate.  This, I submit, is not a good quality. He has also attacked members of his own congregation (including an expert on the Civil War in his Seattle mission church) and shunned those who do not agree with him.  Generally,he has attacked and ridiculed most of the evangelical churches in America.  His vitriol is extreme and nauseating. For more see all my articles on Wilson at http://www.home.roadrunner.com/~nickgier/Wilson.htm.
> 
> Bouma has led an attack on a very conservative Moscow Republican and has used hateful language against all so-called "moderate" Republicans and those who support equal rights.  That of course does not show very good character.  At least that is what most reasonable people would believe.
> 
> So, Judd, don't leave us like the others did.  Stay and give us some reasons to believe that Wilson and Bouma are good men.  I think they are a very bad influence on our community, and they violate all the rules that you wish to uphold.
> 
> I challenge you to convince us otherwise.
> 
> Proud to be an Intolerista, because it is a virtue to reject arrogance, deceit, dishonesty, and shameful/juvenile behavior.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Nick
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> wrote:
>> Hatred is a human emotion, Mr. Wilson; a human emotion we all possess (even you, as reflected on your website).
>> 
>> Let me rephrase my statement . . .
>> 
>> I do not hate you personally.  I hate the bigoted culture you so proudly display on your website.
>> 
>> I choose not to tolerate such bigotry, Mr. Wilson, but to expose it. This I will do as long as I am humanly able.
>> 
>> I have NEVER said that you are not accepted here on Vision 2020 and I never will.  Vision 2020 is a public forum in which we discuss topics that impact our neighborhoods, community, state, and nation.
>> 
>> If you find my freely expressed opinion not to your liking, so be it.
>> 
>> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>> 
>> "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
>> http://www.MoscowCares.com
>>   
>> Tom Hansen
>> Moscow, Idaho
>> 
>> "There's room at the top they are telling you still 
>> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill 
>> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>> 
>> - John Lennon
>>  
>> 
>> On Apr 4, 2013, at 8:39 AM, "Judd A. Wilson" <judd_allen_wilson at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Paul R - Great to meet another open-minded person in this town.  Cheers.
>>> Art Deco/Wayne - I don't disavow either Doug Wilson or Gresham Bouma.  They're both good men.  
>>> Rosemary - It's a blog template.  I blog as a hobby when I have the time.  Don't read too much into my font selection.  And when I went to the council in December, I didn't ask them for an ordinance.  I asked them for the same treatment regarding hateful billboards that they'd afford other demographic groups, such as homosexuals.  I expect progressives/liberals to play by their own rules.  But they let me down then just as you have now.
>>> Tom - You supported an anti-discrimination ordinance because it supposedly does away with hatred and bigotry.  And yet you have openly stated that you hate me.  When I was still young I realized that the belief, "I'm not prejudiced...except against people that are prejudiced," didn't hold water.  You should reconsider.  And I don't hate you, for the record, or anyone else on this forum.  Or anyone at all, anywhere.  But you've treated me so ill that it's clear I'm not tolerated, included, or accepted here.  With the exception of Paul, it's become clear that this isn't a forum for liberals or welcoming of Moscow community members at all.  
>>> As for my quote about young, white, American males: thanks for reading and sharing.  I stand by every word.
>>> For more, go to: http://juddwilson.com/2013/04/04/freedom-of-conscience-is-the-foundation-of-a-free-society-civil-discourse-is-the-glue-that-holds-it-together-2/ 
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Judd Wilson
>>> juddwilson.com 
>>> =======================================================
>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>               http://www.fsr.net
>>>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> =======================================================
>> 
>> =======================================================
>>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>                http://www.fsr.net
>>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
> 
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>               http://www.fsr.net
>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
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