[Vision2020] Keeley vs. Wilson (Was: "Who Dat?" mysteriously turn into Romney & Middle Class)

Nicholas Gier ngier006 at gmail.com
Wed Sep 19 14:04:11 PDT 2012


Hi Keeley,

You did a great job against a dishonest and disgraceful pastor.  Below is a
rebuttal to Wilson's use of the Book of Jude.

My only quibble with the author (s) is that "sons of God" (bene elohim in
Hebrew) are angels (a different word is used from them) but minor deities
under the High God.  See my essay "Hebrew Henotheism" at
www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/henotheism.htm.  Henotheism is an advance form
of polytheism that has a executive god who rules over minor deities.  Read
about the summary dismissal of the minor deities in Psalms 82.

Wish I could see more of your insights on the Vision.

Nick

http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/biblical_evidence/sodom_and_gomorrah.html

The second of the clobber passages is another reference to Sodom and
Gomorrah. In the King James Version of the Bible it reads:

Note 7. When quoting the clobber passages, we have chosen to use the King
James Version, because this is the translation most often quoted by
Christians who use these passages against gay, lesbian, and bisexual people.

“Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving
themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set
forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (Jude 7
(See note 7.))

When we read this verse in modern America, having been raised in a culture
that despises gays and refers to them as “queer,” it is easy to assume
Jude’s reference to “going after strange flesh” must mean homosexuality.
For many heterosexual people, it seems unnatural or strange for a person to
desire intimacy with someone of the same sex. However, well-informed
theologians will tell you this is not what Jude was talking about.

At the time the book of Jude was written, many believed some of the women
of Sodom had engaged in intercourse with male angels. This belief was
probably derived from Genesis 6:1, 2 and 4, where we are told the “Sons of
God”(angels) took the daughters of humans as wives. This was the final act
which brought God’s judgment on the earth in the form of a great flood. And
it seems some Jewish writers believed this was also the sin which sealed
Sodom’s fate.

Note 8. For an excellent discussion of this, see Nissinen, pages 91 to 93.
In these pages, Nissinen discusses Jewish writings from 200 to 1 bc which
associate the sin of the people of Sodom with that of people before the
flood of Noah.

Note 9. For example, see JND. Kelly, *A commentary on the Epistles of Peter
and of Jude* (Harper and Row, New York, 1969), pages 258-259; Fred
Craddock, *First and Second Peter and Jude* (Westminster John Knox Press,
Louisville, 1995), page 139; Richard Bauckham, *Jude, 2 Peter* (Word Books,
Waco, 1983), page 54; Michael Green, *The Second Epistle General of Peter
and the General Epistle of Jude* (Inter-Varsity Press, Leicester, 1987),
page 180; CEB. Cranfield, *I and II Peter and Jude* (SCM Press, London,
1960), page 159; and Richard Hays,*The Moral Vision of the New
Testament* (Harper,
San Francisco, 1996), page 404.

According to first century legend, some of the women of Sodom (and other
wicked ancient cities) were thought to have had sex with beings who were
made of different flesh — angelic flesh. (See note 8.) This is what Jude
was referring to when he talked about “going after strange flesh.” He was
referring to heterosexual sex between male angels and human women, not
homosexual sex between humans. Many theologians, including many
conservatives, interpret the passage this way. (See note 9.)

Again we ask, does this passage apply to the question we bring to
Scripture? And we must answer that it has nothing to say about whether it
is possible for two humans of the same sex to have an intimate, loving
relationship with the blessing of God.
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