[Vision2020] Who Dat?

Tue Sep 18 19:23:20 PDT 2012

I bet the number of people entitled to food stamps and government benefits and don't collect it supersedes those that go through the hoops to get it when they really don't need it or deserve it.

So if the law was equitably applied, the federal government would be losing more money, I think.

I agree with Joe on the laws. I think there should be less laws and allow common sense, judges and juries to decide what is fair rather then trying to write a separate law for each and every possible outcome to every situation that could occur in the future.  

Donovan J. Arnold 

From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
To: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> 
Cc: Moscow Vision2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Who Dat?

Paul,

What is the problem of welfare fraud? What are the dollars lost
because of this "problem."

Many businesses, I imagine, have to factor in loss by theft. Within
their annual budget they have to consider some dollar amount that is
"lost" because various items have been stolen (or lost or whatever).
It is a given that SOME people are going to try to rip you off,
whether it is a business or government subsidies. That fact alone
cannot tell you whether your business or government subsidies program
is a failure.

But calling it a "problem" suggests that you've got proof that there
is abuse here, that MANY people abuse the system and something must be
done about it. I just don't see it and I'd love to see some numbers to
back up this fear. It is a bold claim. We know people are saving money
(by not paying taxes) but how is that proof that there is abuse? It
depends on what they do with those savings, what they do with their
lives.

Clearly, it can't be a matter of just receiving tax breaks or
government subsidies, otherwise you'd have to condemn most of US
farming, as well as corporations who use creative means to avoid
paying taxes (as do various individuals).

And do you really think that once we count up the subsidies for
farming, the number of businesses who pay few or no taxes because of
various tricks, etc. THAT dollar amount would be less than the dollar
amount "saved" by individuals either through government subsidies
(welfare) or tax tricks? No way. If you want to make a statement and
collect some bucks, start with the businesses and leave the
individuals alone.

Also, if you pass laws so that corporations can abuse them for their
own benefit and pay fewer taxes, then sure enough individuals are
going to figure out those same tricks and abuse the laws as well. That
is just how the law works. That is why I am a legal minimalist: the
fewer laws, the better. Laws create a context for abuse.

I've been stunned by criticisms of Obama by you and Sunil, so I can't
say I'm an Obama supporter. I'm on the fence. My girlfriend is making
a strong case for Obama but I'm still disappointed in the foreign
policy and domestic freedom issues (to say the least).

Nonetheless, Romney is a hypocrite. He used the government to his own
economic advantage -- legally as did many others. But when it suits
him, he gets on his moral high horse and condemns those who do the
same: work the system within the legal limits to their own financial
advantage. You cannot have it both ways. Want folks to respect
government, to pay their fair share in taxes, and not to abuse the
system? If so, business needs to lead the way. Romney won't tell that
story. For him, business is immune to these criticisms.

Joe

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 3:37 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
> So that's a "no" on acknowledging that there is a problem with welfare (and
> other entitlement) fraud?  I understand that everyone is having fun taking a
> swing at Romney, which I couldn't care less about because I'm going to vote
> for Gary Johnson anyway, but why not admit that there is a small kernel of
> truth in there somewhere?
>
> Paul
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Ron Force <rforce2003 at yahoo.com>
> To: Moscow Vision2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 3:20 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Who Dat?
>
> By all means, let's hit those seniors mooching on $12K per year Social
> Security (average monthy benefit) and getting by tax free .
> http://www.hamiltonproject.org/papers/the_truth_about_taxes_just_about_everyone_pays_them/
> OR,
> From Business Insider:
> The chart below from the Tax Policy Center shows the distribution of federal
> income taxes paid by income level in 2011.
> It contains a number of interesting factoids, including the following:
>
> 7,000 people made more than $1 million but paid no income tax.
> 22,000 people made between $500,000 and $1 million but paid no income tax.
> 81,000 people made between $200,000 and $500,000 but paid no income tax.
> 381,000 people made between $100,000 and $200,000 but paid no income tax.
>
> So that's 491,000 Americans who made more than $100,000 a year who paid no
> income tax. (Clearly dependent victims who refuse to take responsibility for
> their lives!)
> Also:
>
> 45% of the country makes less than $30,000 per year.
> 30% of the country makes less than $20,000 per year.
> 15% of the country makes less than $10,000 per year.
>
> Also:
>
> 60 million of the 76 million Americans who pay no income tax make $30,000 or
> less.
>
> Also:
>
> 25 million Americans make more than $100,000 per year—15% of the total.
> 6.7 million Americans make more than $200,000 per year—4% of the total.
> 1.3 million Americans make more than $500,000 per year—less than 1% of the
> total.
> 433,000 Americans make more than $1 million per year—less than 0.2% of the
> total.
>
>
> Chart here:
> Read more:
> http://www.businessinsider.com/7000-millionaires-paid-no-income-tax-2012-9#ixzz26rW1MJWr
>
> Ron Force
> Moscow Idaho USA
> ________________________________
> From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> To: Robert Dickow <dickow at turbonet.com>; "vision2020 at moscow.com"
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 2:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Who Dat?
>
> While I think Romney is absurdly out of touch with anyone who doesn't make
> mid 6-figures at least, I don't dispute that, but can we all acknowledge
> that there are people out there that leach off the system in one way or
> another?  They may not live in the Hamptons, and I realize they don't make
> up anywhere near the 47% that Romney quoted, but they do exist.  And they
> ruin the system for everyone.
>
> Paul
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Robert Dickow <dickow at turbonet.com>
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 1:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Who Dat?
>
> It’s sad when it appears that some people (Mitt among them?) are wracked
> with terror that most everybody who gets government help is on welfare so
> they can somehow scam the system, take advantage of it, or make their comfy
> livings by leveraging the welfare system. Funny, I have personally never
> seen that sort of thing happening, though I suppose it’s just a matter of
> odds that somebody out there is happy to just take their single mom
> government checks and then sit on the beach in Cancun sipping Margaritas all
> day, saving up to buy a big yacht without lifting a finger to improve their
> lot in life. The last person I saw paying for food with food stamps at
> Safeway certainly didn’t look like they were doing anything along those
> lines. So, are there any hard figures out there that demonstrate how many
> bona fide ‘leeches’ are among the U.S. government assistance recipients--
> well-off, fat and sassy-- actively finagling the system so can *avoid* ever
> having to have a real job? Loaded question, I know. But hey, Mitt, there
> might be a couple of people out there like that, ok…. that’s maybe just the
> cost of doing business.
>
> Frankly, the way things are going, I’m afraid that. being a musician and
> academic, I might be accused of being a burden to society.
>
> Bob Dickow, troublemaker
>
> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
> On Behalf Of Tom Hansen
> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 11:40 AM
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: [Vision2020] Who Dat?
>
> http://www.tomandrodna.com/Speeches/Who_Dat.mp3
>
> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>
> “Moscow Cares”
> http://www.moscowcares.com/
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
>
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