<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">I bet the number of people entitled to food stamps and government benefits and don't collect it <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-0><SPAN>supersedes</SPAN></SPAN> those that go through the hoops to get it when they really don't need it or deserve it.</SPAN></div>
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<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">So if the law was equitably applied, the federal government would be losing more money, I think.</SPAN></div>
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto"></SPAN> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">I agree with Joe on the laws. I think there should be less laws and allow common sense, judges and juries to decide what is fair rather then trying to write a <SPAN id=misspell-0><SPAN>separate</SPAN></SPAN> law for each and every possible outcome to every <SPAN id=misspell-1><SPAN>situation</SPAN></SPAN> that could occur in the future. </SPAN></div>
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<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">Donovan J. Arnold <VAR id=yui-ie-cursor></VAR></SPAN></div>
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<DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px" class=hr contentEditable=false readonly="true"></DIV><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe@gmail.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Paul Rumelhart <godshatter@yahoo.com> <BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> Moscow Vision2020 <vision2020@moscow.com> <BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, September 18, 2012 6:03 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Vision2020] Who <SPAN id=misspell-3 class=mark>Dat</SPAN>?<BR></FONT></DIV><BR>Paul,<BR><BR>What is the problem of welfare fraud? What are the dollars lost<BR>because of this
"problem."<BR><BR>Many businesses, I imagine, have to factor in loss by theft. Within<BR>their annual budget they have to consider some dollar amount that is<BR>"lost" because various items have been stolen (or lost or whatever).<BR>It is a given that SOME people are going to try to rip you off,<BR>whether it is a business or government subsidies. That fact alone<BR>cannot tell you whether your business or government subsidies program<BR>is a failure.<BR><BR>But calling it a "problem" suggests that you've got proof that there<BR>is abuse here, that MANY people abuse the system and something must be<BR>done about it. I just don't see it and I'd love to see some numbers to<BR>back up this fear. It is a bold claim. We know people are saving money<BR>(by not paying taxes) but how is that proof that there is abuse? It<BR>depends on what they do with those savings, what they do with their<BR>lives.<BR><BR>Clearly, it can't be a matter of just receiving tax
breaks or<BR>government subsidies, otherwise you'd have to condemn most of US<BR>farming, as well as corporations who use creative means to avoid<BR>paying taxes (as do various individuals).<BR><BR>And do you really think that once we count up the subsidies for<BR>farming, the number of businesses who pay few or no taxes because of<BR>various tricks, etc. THAT dollar amount would be less than the dollar<BR>amount "saved" by individuals either through government subsidies<BR>(welfare) or tax tricks? No way. If you want to make a statement and<BR>collect some bucks, start with the businesses and leave the<BR>individuals alone.<BR><BR>Also, if you pass laws so that corporations can abuse them for their<BR>own benefit and pay fewer taxes, then sure enough individuals are<BR>going to figure out those same tricks and abuse the laws as well. That<BR>is just how the law works. That is why I am a legal minimalist: the<BR>fewer laws, the better. Laws create a
context for abuse.<BR><BR>I've been stunned by criticisms of Obama by you and <SPAN id=misspell-4 class=mark>Sunil</SPAN>, so I can't<BR>say I'm an Obama supporter. I'm on the fence. My girlfriend is making<BR>a strong case for Obama but I'm still disappointed in the foreign<BR>policy and domestic freedom issues (to say the least).<BR><BR>Nonetheless, Romney is a hypocrite. He used the government to his own<BR>economic advantage -- legally as did many others. But when it suits<BR>him, he gets on his moral high horse and condemns those who do the<BR>same: work the system within the legal limits to their own financial<BR>advantage. You cannot have it both ways. Want folks to respect<BR>government, to pay their fair share in taxes, and not to abuse the<BR>system? If so, business needs to lead the way. Romney won't tell that<BR>story. For him, business is immune to these criticisms.<BR><BR>Joe<BR><BR>On Tue, <SPAN id=misspell-5 class=mark>Sep</SPAN> 18,
2012 at 3:37 PM, Paul Rumelhart <<A href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</A>> wrote:<BR>> So that's a "no" on acknowledging that there is a problem with welfare (and<BR>> other entitlement) fraud? I understand that everyone is having fun taking a<BR>> swing at Romney, which I couldn't care less about because I'm going to vote<BR>> for Gary Johnson anyway, but why not admit that there is a small kernel of<BR>> truth in there somewhere?<BR>><BR>> Paul<BR>><BR>><BR>> ________________________________<BR>> From: Ron Force <<A href="mailto:rforce2003@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:rforce2003@yahoo.com">rforce2003@yahoo.com</A>><BR>> To: Moscow Vision2020 <<A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A>><BR>> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 3:20 PM<BR>><BR>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
Who <SPAN id=misspell-7 class=mark>Dat</SPAN>?<BR>><BR>> By all means, let's hit those seniors mooching on $12K per year Social<BR>> Security (average <SPAN id=misspell-8 class=mark>monthy</SPAN> benefit) and getting by tax free .<BR>> http://www.hamiltonproject.org/papers/the_truth_about_taxes_just_about_everyone_pays_them/<BR>> OR,<BR>> From Business Insider:<BR>> The chart below from the Tax Policy Center shows the distribution of federal<BR>> income taxes paid by income level in 2011.<BR>> It contains a number of interesting factoids, including the following:<BR>><BR>> 7,000 people made more than $1 million but paid no income tax.<BR>> 22,000 people made between $500,000 and $1 million but paid no income tax.<BR>> 81,000 people made between $200,000 and $500,000 but paid no income tax.<BR>> 381,000 people made between $100,000 and $200,000 but paid no income tax.<BR>><BR>> So that's 491,000 Americans
who made more than $100,000 a year who paid no<BR>> income tax. (Clearly dependent victims who refuse to take responsibility for<BR>> their lives!)<BR>> Also:<BR>><BR>> 45% of the country makes less than $30,000 per year.<BR>> 30% of the country makes less than $20,000 per year.<BR>> 15% of the country makes less than $10,000 per year.<BR>><BR>> Also:<BR>><BR>> 60 million of the 76 million Americans who pay no income tax make $30,000 or<BR>> less.<BR>><BR>> Also:<BR>><BR>> 25 million Americans make more than $100,000 per year—15% of the total.<BR>> 6.7 million Americans make more than $200,000 per year—4% of the total.<BR>> 1.3 million Americans make more than $500,000 per year—less than 1% of the<BR>> total.<BR>> 433,000 Americans make more than $1 million per year—less than 0.2% of the<BR>> total.<BR>><BR>><BR>> Chart here:<BR>> Read more:<BR>> <A
href="http://www.businessinsider.com/7000-millionaires-paid-no-income-tax-2012-9#ixzz26rW1MJWr" target=_blank>http://www.businessinsider.com/7000-millionaires-paid-no-income-tax-2012-9#ixzz26rW1MJWr</A><BR>><BR>> Ron Force<BR>> Moscow Idaho USA<BR>> ________________________________<BR>> From: Paul Rumelhart <<A href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</A>><BR>> To: Robert <SPAN id=misspell-10 class=mark>Dickow</SPAN> <<A href="mailto:dickow@turbonet.com" ymailto="mailto:dickow@turbonet.com">dickow@turbonet.com</A>>; "<A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A>"<BR>> <<A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A>><BR>> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 2:47 PM<BR>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Who <SPAN id=misspell-11
class=mark>Dat</SPAN>?<BR>><BR>> While I think Romney is absurdly out of touch with anyone who doesn't make<BR>> mid 6-figures at least, I don't dispute that, but can we all acknowledge<BR>> that there are people out there that leach off the system in one way or<BR>> another? They may not live in the <SPAN id=misspell-12 class=mark>Hamptons</SPAN>, and I realize they don't make<BR>> up anywhere near the 47% that Romney quoted, but they do exist. And they<BR>> ruin the system for everyone.<BR>><BR>> Paul<BR>><BR>><BR>> ________________________________<BR>> From: Robert <SPAN id=misspell-13 class=mark>Dickow</SPAN> <<A href="mailto:dickow@turbonet.com" ymailto="mailto:dickow@turbonet.com">dickow@turbonet.com</A>><BR>> To: <A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 1:52 PM<BR>> Subject: Re:
[Vision2020] Who <SPAN id=misspell-14 class=mark>Dat</SPAN>?<BR>><BR>> It’s sad when it appears that some people (Mitt among them?) are wracked<BR>> with terror that most everybody who gets government help is on welfare so<BR>> they can somehow scam the system, take advantage of it, or make their comfy<BR>> livings by leveraging the welfare system. Funny, I have personally never<BR>> seen that sort of thing happening, though I suppose it’s just a matter of<BR>> odds that somebody out there is happy to just take their single mom<BR>> government checks and then sit on the beach in Cancun sipping Margaritas all<BR>> day, saving up to buy a big yacht without lifting a finger to improve their<BR>> lot in life. The last person I saw paying for food with food stamps at<BR>> Safeway certainly <SPAN id=misspell-15 class=mark>didn</SPAN>’t look like they were doing anything along those<BR>> lines. So, are there any hard
figures out there that demonstrate how many<BR>> <SPAN id=misspell-16 class=mark>bona</SPAN> <SPAN id=misspell-17 class=mark>fide</SPAN> ‘leeches’ are among the U.S. government assistance recipients--<BR>> well-off, fat and sassy-- actively finagling the system so can *avoid* ever<BR>> having to have a real job? Loaded question, I know. But hey, Mitt, there<BR>> might be a couple of people out there like that, <SPAN id=misspell-18 class=mark>ok</SPAN>…. that’s maybe just the<BR>> cost of doing business.<BR>><BR>> Frankly, the way things are going, I’m afraid that. being a musician and<BR>> academic, I might be accused of being a burden to society.<BR>><BR>> Bob <SPAN id=misspell-19 class=mark>Dickow</SPAN>, troublemaker<BR>><BR>> From: <A href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com">vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</A> [<SPAN id=misspell-20
class=mark>mailto</SPAN>:<A href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com">vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</A>]<BR>> On Behalf Of Tom Hansen<BR>> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 11:40 AM<BR>> To: <A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>> Subject: [Vision2020] Who <SPAN id=misspell-21 class=mark>Dat</SPAN>?<BR>><BR>> <A href="http://www.tomandrodna.com/Speeches/Who_Dat.mp3" target=_blank>http://www.tomandrodna.com/Speeches/Who_Dat.mp3</A><BR>><BR>> <SPAN id=misspell-22 class=mark>Seeya</SPAN> round town, Moscow, because . . .<BR>><BR>> “Moscow Cares”<BR>> <A href="http://www.moscowcares.com/" target=_blank>http://www.moscowcares.com/</A><BR>><BR>> Tom Hansen<BR>> Moscow, Idaho<BR>><BR>><BR>> =======================================================<BR>> List services made available by First
Step Internet,<BR>> serving the communities of the <SPAN id=misspell-23 class=mark>Palouse</SPAN> since 1994.<BR>> <A href="http://www.fsr.net/" target=_blank>http://www.fsr.net/</A><BR>> <SPAN id=misspell-24 class=mark>mailto</SPAN>:<A href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>> =======================================================<BR>><BR>><BR>> =======================================================<BR>> List services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>> serving the communities of the <SPAN id=misspell-25 class=mark>Palouse</SPAN> since 1994.<BR>> <A href="http://www.fsr.net/" target=_blank>http://www.fsr.net/</A><BR>> <SPAN id=misspell-26 class=mark>mailto</SPAN>:<A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>> =======================================================<BR>><BR>><BR>> =======================================================<BR>> List services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>> serving the communities of the <SPAN id=misspell-27 class=mark>Palouse</SPAN> since 1994.<BR>> <A href="http://www.fsr.net/" target=_blank>http://www.fsr.net/</A><BR>> <SPAN id=misspell-28 class=mark>mailto</SPAN>:<A href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>> =======================================================<BR>><BR>><BR>> =======================================================<BR>> List services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>> serving the
communities of the <SPAN id=misspell-29 class=mark>Palouse</SPAN> since 1994.<BR>> <A href="http://www.fsr.net/" target=_blank>http://www.fsr.net/</A><BR>> <SPAN id=misspell-30 class=mark>mailto</SPAN>:<A href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>> =======================================================<BR><BR>=======================================================<BR>List services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>serving the communities of the <SPAN id=misspell-31 class=mark>Palouse</SPAN> since 1994.<BR> <A href="http://www.fsr.net/" target=_blank>http://www.fsr.net/</A><BR> <SPAN id=misspell-32 class=mark>mailto</SPAN>:<A href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"
ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>=======================================================<BR><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></div></body></html>