[Vision2020] Beating dead horses

Wayne Price bear at moscow.com
Wed May 30 08:17:24 PDT 2012 

How about staying home and minding our own business?


Wayne







On May 30, 2012, at 8:08 AM, Donovan Arnold wrote:

> Mr. Price,
>
> What specific policy do you think the US should instigate that will  
> result in zero innocent casualties, or less casualties than we  
> currently inflict, about 250 a year, according to Human Watch.
>
> Donovan J. Arnold
>
> From: Wayne Price <bear at moscow.com>
> To: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> Cc: vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 7:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Beating dead horses
>
> Sunil,
>
> It's right next to the section that talks about it being OK to  
> invade the sovereign territory of another country, either by sending  
> in troops, or aircraft, or just bombing them, and because it's the  
> United States, it's NOT an act of war!
>
> It wasn't right when the Bush Administration did it, it's not right  
> now, and it won't be right if a  Romney  Administration does it, God  
> forbid!  One of the big issues as I see it is that once you loose  
> the moral high ground in the so called "War on Terrorism", you can't  
> get it back, and we appear to have lost it years ago.
>
>
> Wayne
>
>
>
>
> On May 30, 2012, at 6:03 AM, Sunil Ramalingam wrote:
>
>> Chuck (or is it Chick?)
>>
>> I'm looking for the section in the Constitution that says the  
>> President, on his own say so, can kill US citizens, without due  
>> process. Where is it?
>>
>> Here's Greenwald on this issue, yesterday:
>>
>> http://www.salon.com/2012/05/29/obama_the_warrior/singleton/
>>
>> Here's something to be proud of: "Mr. Obama embraced a disputed  
>> method for counting civilian casualties that did little to box him  
>> in. It in effect counts all military-age males in a strike zone as  
>> combatants, according to several administration officials, unless  
>> there is explicit intelligence posthumously proving them  
>> innocent." (From this other Greenwald article yesterday: http://www.salon.com/2012/05/29/militants_media_propaganda/singleton/ 
>>  )
>>
>> Yep, if we killed them, they must have been militants, unless  
>> someone proves otherwise, after they're dead. Of course, when we  
>> send drones back to kill rescuers and mourners, it may be hard to  
>> prove the innocence of the murder victims. And we should believe  
>> the state, because Obama's president, right? If he says it, it must  
>> be true? How many Obama supporters took the same position when Bush  
>> was president?
>>
>> How can we 'eliminate al Quaeda' when every time we blow up people,  
>> we help them recruit?
>>
>> Sunil
>>
>> Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 16:59:39 -0700
>> From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
>> To: ckovis at turbonet.com
>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Beating dead horses
>>
>> Mr. Kovis,
>>
>> It concerns me that you don't know the difference between an  
>> opinion piece and an article strictly written with
>> empirical facts backed by several sources for accuracy. One is  
>> subjective, and the other is objective.
>>
>> You can post 100s of opinion pieces by anti-war, anti-Obama, or  
>> anti-current US policy writers, it doesn't substantiate your claims  
>> that Obama is targeting innocent civilians.
>>
>> "When he applies his lawyering skills to counterterrorism, it is  
>> usually to enable, not constrain, his ferocious campaign against Al  
>> Qaeda - even when it comes to killing an American cleric in Yemen,  
>> a decision that Mr. Obama told colleagues was "an easy one."
>>
>> This is not the full truth, which makes it a lie. If you read the  
>> article which the opinion writer is referring to, you would see  
>> that Obama has only targeted 15 Yemen with American ties, all  
>> plotting an attack on American soil. It doesn't matter if someone  
>> is a cleric from Mukalla, Yemen, or Moscow, Russia, or Moscow,  
>> Idaho, if they are plotting to kill Americans in the United States  
>> or elsewhere, I say more power to the President to bring a drone  
>> plane down on their head.
>>
>> It appears to me, you reject any policy the US has of eliminating  
>> Al Qaeda, an organization that plotted, funded, and executed 3,000  
>> American civilians, including children, and would do it again given  
>> a chance.
>>
>> Donovan J. Arnold
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Chuck Kovis <ckovis at turbonet.com>
>> To: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: "vision2020 at moscow.com" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 4:32 PM
>> Subject: Beating dead horses
>>
>> From the New York Times via Reader Supported News:
>> "In interviews with The New York Times, three dozen of his current  
>> and former advisers described Mr. Obama's evolution since taking on  
>> the role, without precedent in presidential history, of personally  
>> overseeing the shadow war with Al Qaeda.  They describe a  
>> paradoxical leader who shunned the legislative deal-making required  
>> to close the detention facility at Guantánamo Bay in Cuba, but  
>> approves lethal action without hand-wringing. While he was adamant  
>> about narrowing the fight and improving relations with the Muslim  
>> world, he has followed the metastasizing enemy into new and  
>> dangerous lands. When he applies his lawyering skills to  
>> counterterrorism, it is usually to enable, not constrain, his  
>> ferocious campaign against Al Qaeda - even when it comes to killing  
>> an American cleric in Yemen, a decision that Mr. Obama told  
>> colleagues was "an easy one."  "  (My emphasis)
>> I opposed Democrat Lyndon Johnson and the Vietnam War.  I oppose  
>> Democrat Barack Obama and the Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and Iran  
>> Wars.  When you have a constitutional law professor saying that it  
>> is "an easy one" to kill a fellow U.S. citizen without what passes  
>> now days for "due process,"  don't expect me to go along with it.   
>> I find it disgusting that more people in this country don't have  
>> the guts to put a stop to this at the ballot box.  As a country, we  
>> will never learn, when  a former SDS'er is an apologist for a  
>> President who says the decision to kill a fellow human being and  
>> fellow American citizen is easy.         Chuck Kovis
>>
>>
>>
>>
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