[Vision2020] "We are the answer"
Gier, Nicholas
ngier at uidaho.edu
Sat Mar 31 18:30:27 PDT 2012
Hi Paul,
Thanks for the responses. I'll address a few points and then I'm done.
In my book on evangelical Christianity, I went to great pains to distinguish between those theologians whom I learned to respect and those that I came to disrespect. My focus was always on persons/leaders and not the tens of thousands of people in their congregations or denominations.
The focus of my criticism has always been on Wilson's inner circle and not church members or NSA students. I assume that most of them do not have the vices their leaders have.
One clarification: I was not inviting NSA faculty and students to "debates," but a regional professional conference where faculty present papers in a respectful way and where students are also given a chance to interact and present their views as well. I have no desire to debate Wilson because I have no respect for him nor could I trust him.
You admit that Ron Paul is a "crazy guy," and yet you will vote for him? Now that's irrational.
Thanks for the dialogue,
Nick
> A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know
> they shall never sit in.
>
> -Greek proverb
> Hi Paul,
>
> Thanks for the apology. I don't know if you wanted include in this
> reply. As per usual, I forgot to press "Reply All" when I sent me
> post below.
>
> Apology accepted. Now what a response to what I said?
>
> Nick
>
> > Hi Paul,
> >
> > Thanks for referring to me--at least indirectly--by my first name. It
> > makes me feel like a real person in this debate. Thanks for the
> > third-person respect.
> >
> > You say that what set you off was my signing myself as "Proud
> > Intolerista. It's not intolerant to dislike intellectual dishonesty,
> > ordinary dishonesty, bigotry, and bad manners." I don't tolerate
> > intellectual dishonesty among my colleagues and students and I judge
> > it harshly. My former student Doug Wilson is no different. Am I to
> > assume that you don't dislike these vices? I hope not.
> >
> > Perhaps you did not read my long post about my sincere engagement with
> > NSA faculty and students, but let me just add that Wilson and I had
> > friendly relations until from 1973 to 1993 when he double-crossed me
> > on an abortion debate, but I remained cordial and respectful
> > thereafter. The slavery debate and his reactions to it changed
> > everything for me and I now have no respect for him at all. Of course
> > he is free to say what he wants, but I will continue to condemn him as
> > long as I have breath.
> >
> > In your first post on this issue you remarked that you found my
> > actions odd for a rational person. Similarly, I find your support for
> > Ron Paul irrational. With support from a GOP Congress he could really
> > destroy our economy.
> >
> > Thanks for the dialogue (especially now that I personally recognized),
> >
> > Nick
> >
> > Nicholas F. Gier, Professor Emeritus
> > Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho
> > "The Palouse Pundit" on Radio Free Moscow, 92.5 FM
> > President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFT/AFL-CIO
> > www.idaho-aft.org/ift.htm
> > 208-882-9212, 410 Samaritan Lane, Moscow, ID 83843
> >
> > "Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed immaturity.
> > Immaturity is the inability to use one's understanding without
> > guidance from another. This immaturity is self- imposed when its cause
> > lies not in lack of understanding, but in lack of resolve and courage
> > to use it without guidance from another. Sapere Aude! 'Have courage to
> > use your own understand-ing!---that is the motto of enlightenment.
> >
> > --Immanuel Kant
> >
> > A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know
> > they shall never sit in.
> >
> > -Greek proverb
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com on behalf of Paul Rumelhart
> > Sent: Sat 3/31/2012 11:13 AM
> > To: Sunil Ramalingam
> > Cc: vision 2020
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "We are the answer"
> >
> >
> > I might even join in a peaceful protest of a KKK parade, in an effort to
> > promote the idea of equality. I would likely try to calm people down if
> > they were angered by the KKK members, and if the protest turned into
> > anything but peaceful, I would leave it.
> >
> > In answer to your question, of course we have the right to judge
> > people's views and oppose them if we don't like them. That's what I'm
> > doing here. My initial post was an effort to show the "Intoleristas"
> > that they were in fact intolerant. It wasn't an effort to have them
> > shut down or in any way silenced. The statement that started this was
> > in one of Nick's posts ("It's not intolerant to dislkike intellectual
> > dishonesty, ordinary dishonesty, bigotry, and bad manners.") I stated
> > that what I've seen from the Intoleristas certainly looks like
> > intolerance to me. Most of the responses have either been attempts to
> > show me that Doug Wilson is so bad that being intolerant of him is our
> > civic duty, or a shocked reaction to the fact that I really don't care
> > what nonsense others believe. Oh, and a few attempts to tie my lack of
> > caring about other's personal beliefs with either character flaws, my
> > race, gender, and economic status, or support for murder, racial
> > violence, or the Nazi party.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > On 03/31/2012 10:39 AM, Sunil Ramalingam wrote:
> > > Paul,
> > >
> > > If the Klan wants to hold a parade, I defend their right to do so. I
> > > won't try to prevent them from having their parade.
> > >
> > > But I will be there to protest them and their opinions, and will
> > > support the right of others to do the same.
> > >
> > > People have the right to any view they want, as far as I'm concerned,
> > > and I think we agree here. What they don't have is the right to have
> > > us all say, 'That's just dandy.' We have the right to judge their
> > > views, and oppose them if we think they're wrong. I get the feeling
> > > you don't think we have that right. Am I correct about that?
> > >
> > > Sunil
> > >
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 10:31:41 -0700
> > > From: godshatter at yahoo.com
> > > To: art.deco.studios at gmail.com
> > > CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "We are the answer"
> > >
> > > On 03/31/2012 10:07 AM, Art Deco wrote:
> > >
> > > 1. Rumelhart writes:
> > >
> > > "If black teenagers wearing hoods were being harassed here in
> > > Moscow, I'd be suggesting that we should all be more tolerant of
> > > others on this list. If Muslim women in Moscow were being
> > > harassed I'd be suggesting that we should all be more tolerant of
> > > each other."
> > >
> > > Hence, Rumelhart would also heartily agree with the same amount of
> > > tenacity to the following:
> > >
> > > "If KKK members wearing hoods were being harassed here in Moscow,
> > > I'd be suggesting that we should all be more tolerant of others on
> > > this list. If Aryan Nations members and other white supremacists
> > > in Moscow were being harassed I'd be suggesting that we should all
> > > be more tolerant of each other."
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes, actually I would. If one group is harassing another group merely
> > > because of their beliefs, then, yes, I would be calling for more
> > > tolerance. I'm not saying that would be my reaction if KKK members
> > > were physically harassing non-whites on the streets, but it would be
> > > my reaction if someone just simply declared that they supported the
> > > KKK and they were getting harassed for it.
> > >
> > > It's really not that difficult of a concept. It's not my purpose in
> > > life to force everyone to think my way. Individualism and the
> > > sanctity of the mind are important concepts to me. I'm only
> > > interested in how we all interact in the physical plane.
> > >
> > > Just out of curiosity, if someone produced a mind control device that
> > > could be used on people to (among other things) change their core
> > > beliefs, would you recommend we use it on KKK members?
> > >
> > >
> > > 2. Rumelhart also writes:
> > >
> > > "But if one particular faith is being singled out because of their
> > > beliefs and some bad blood between list members, I'm effectively
> > > shunned if I suggest that we be more tolerant of them."
> > >
> > > So now its all about you, Rumelhart. Who would have guessed?
> > > Poor, poor Rumelhart.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you for your kind words, but I don't really care that much about
> > > it. I'm just pointing out that a mere request for tolerance can't be
> > > tolerated on this list. I don't know about you, but I find that
> ironic.
> > >
> > > Paul (or, if you wish, "Rumelhart")
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > w.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 10:24 PM, keely emerinemix
> > > <kjajmix1 at msn.com <mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > No, Paul, it is NOT "the main point of contention" that the
> > > Christ Church people "simply think that the historical facts
> > > of slavery differ from what's normally understood by
> > > historians" -- two of whose criticism of that view caused our
> > > thin-skinned patriarchal bigot Wilson to seek their censure by
> > > the Governor and the UI President.
> > >
> > > Just to give you an idea of how generous Wilson is in his
> > > extension of the freedom of others to interfere with his
> > > mission . . .
> > >
> > > Wilson's beliefs are made manifest in his words, and those
> > > words promote ideas that are dangerous to civil, stable
> > > society as you or I know it, and sound the death knell to
> > > anything resembling a flourishing, just and righteous -- or
> > > Christian -- society beyond that. His proud claim to be a
> > > "paleo-Confederate," his buddying around with
> > > Neo-Confederates, his attempts to persuade his followers that
> > > Blacks enjoyed being enslaved and his insistence that such
> > > slavery was Biblical -- all of this hints, minimally, at
> > > something less than mere errors of historical understanding.
> > > I'm a Bible student, not a scholar, but I can assure you that
> > > Antebellum slavery was in no way similar to Roman or earlier
> > > Hebraic slaveholding, and it was not at any point "Biblically
> > > defensible." Given that he makes his living pulling the
> > > hermeneutical and political wool over other Christians' eyes,
> > > it damned well matters.
> > >
> > > It's one thing to simply err in one's grasp of history. I'm
> > > probably not the person to go to on the finer details of the
> > > Pelopennesian Wars, for example, but my errors would be
> > > inconsequential and subject to the derision they deserve if I
> > > choose to spout off on that of which I know nothing, although
> > > if I "see differently" in the service of a dangerous agenda,
> > > much less call that agenda "Christian," I deserve every bit of
> > > condemnation I incur. I won't call you "evil" for it, but I
> > > struggle with how to tell you how little I care that you and
> > > others consider me "intolerant" for condemning Wilson and his
> > > lackeys (a term I used in speaking to him by phone three weeks
> > > ago, just in case you think I feel like it's OK to just scurry
> > > around Vision 2020 rather than engage courageously with him
> > > personally. Been there, done that, will do it again any time
> > > he's up to it).
> > >
> > > I laugh when, in the movie "Best In Show," the announcer
> > > intones that Columbus came over on the Mayflower. Such
> > > ignorance is funny in reel life, sad in real life. But I
> > > would urge you to really consider if all "different thinking"
> > > on historical, social, political, and religious matters is
> > > benign and worthy of defense.
> > >
> > > In this case, we have an indefensible malignancy of the worst
> > > type -- that which invokes God. Its spread won't be because I
> > > and a few others stayed silent in its metastasizing.
> > >
> > > Keely
> > > www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
> > > <http://www.keely-prevailingwinds.com>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 20:51:40 -0700
> > > From: godshatter at yahoo.com <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>
> > > To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> > > <mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> > > CC: vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > >
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "We are the answer"
> > >
> > >
> > > If members of Christ Church were going around enslaving
> > > people, you might have a point. As it is, they simply think
> > > that the historical facts of slavery differ from what's
> > > normally understood by historians. I'm not comfortable
> > > ostracizing a group merely because of what they think about
> > > something. That seems to be the main point of contention,
> here.
> > >
> > > There is a huge difference between murdering a person based
> > > solely on their race or culture, and thinking, well, whatever
> > > it is that the Christ Churchers think exactly about slavery in
> > > the Old South. Or, more simply, between murdering anyone for
> > > any reason and thinking thoughts others find offensive.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > On 03/30/2012 07:49 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote:
> > >
> > > Paul,
> > > You are right that everyone needs to work on caring and
> > > accepting their neighbors for the people that they are.
> > > However, it should concern you that some people do not
> > > acknowledge the human atrocities that occurred with the
> > > slavery of a race not that long ago. A race that even
> > > today feels and sufferers the consequences of those
> > > events. It is in effect racist to not acknowledge the
> > > human suffering and violations that occurred to a race of
> > > people. If we can ignore or deceive others into ignoring
> > > one of the greatest human rights violations in the United
> > > States, than we can easily ignore all other human rights
> > > violations. Which, in effect, puts all humans, including
> > > yourself and everyone you care about at risk. Where one
> > > person's rights are ignored and violated, everyone
> > > else can be violated as well. That should concern you. It
> > > is not the practice or belief in a religion that people
> > > object to, but rather the practice of racist preaching
> > > that the violation of human rights that occurred to Blacks
> > > in the United States really didn't happen that people are
> > > objecting to.
> > > Donovan Arnold
> > >
> > > *From:* Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> > > <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>
> > > *To:* Saundra Lund <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>
> > > <mailto:v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>
> > > *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > *Sent:* Friday, March 30, 2012 6:59 PM
> > > *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] "We are the answer"
> > >
> > >
> > > If black teenagers wearing hoods were being harassed here
> > > in Moscow, I'd
> > > be suggesting that we should all be more tolerant of
> > > others on this
> > > list. If Muslim women in Moscow were being harassed I'd
> > > be suggesting
> > > that we should all be more tolerant of each other. But if
> > > one
> > > particular faith is being singled out because of their
> > > beliefs and some
> > > bad blood between list members, I'm effectively shunned if
> > > I suggest
> > > that we be more tolerant of them.
> > >
> > > What a world.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > On 03/30/2012 02:25 PM, Saundra Lund wrote:
> > > > Visionaries:
> > > >
> > > > I know not all here would agree -- some choose to focus
> > > on the "intolerance"
> > > > of so-called Intoleristas rather than on the public
> > > intolerance of bigoted
> > > > groups that galvanized some of us to pull our complacent
> > > heads from the sand
> > > > -- but this eloquently and accurately reflects my thoughts:
> > > > "We must be active architects of a better country and a
> > > better world.
> > > > Silence in the face of bigotry and discrimination is
> > > agreement and consent.
> > > > We must challenge every instance of inequality, no
> > > matter how small it is.
> > > > While overcoming our history's dark side is not
> > > pleasant, it is something we
> > > > must actively do every day."
> > > >
> > > > Here's the full letter that was published in today's
> > > Moscow-Pullman Daily
> > > > News:
> > > >
> > > > Letter to the Editor
> > > > We are the answer
> > > > Posted: Friday, March 30, 2012 1:00 am | Updated: 8:22
> > > am, Fri Mar 30, 2012.
> > > >
> > > > My heart is deeply grieved by the recent news that
> > > Shaima Alawadi, an Iraqi
> > > > mother of five living in California was beaten to death
> > > by a tire iron.
> > > > Found on her body was a note that said, "Go back to your
> > > own country. You're
> > > > a terrorist." This incident shows the long-reaching
> > > effects the political
> > > > rhetoric and rancor of the past 10 years has had on the
> > > American psyche. A
> > > > spark of anger and hatred spurred by our popular culture
> > > and political
> > > > leaders has turned into a fire within the fringe of our
> > > country.
> > > >
> > > > Gay youth are committing suicide due to relentless
> > > intimidation and
> > > > harassment. Travyon Martin was gunned down for what some
> > > call "wearing a
> > > > hood while black." And the murder of Alawadi. All point
> > > to a startling
> > > > problem. There is a dark side of American culture. While
> > > it's underground,
> > > > it's still there. A deep seated resentment of other
> > > races, of people unlike
> > > > us, lies in the hearts of many. This dark side exists
> > > everywhere. I cannot
> > > > count how many times I have heard racial, homophobic and
> > > sexist slurs at
> > > > sporting events, social gatherings, even in the work
> > > place and classes. This
> > > > isn't just a problem isolated to my community, but it is
> > > ingrained within
> > > > the very fabric of our society.
> > > >
> > > > It would be easy for us to give up hope, hope of a
> > > better tomorrow, a
> > > > tomorrow without wrathful hatred and reckless violence.
> > > But we cannot. We
> > > > are the answer to the problem. We must be active
> > > architects of a better
> > > > country and a better world. Silence in the face of
> > > bigotry and
> > > > discrimination is agreement and consent. We must
> > > challenge every instance of
> > > > inequality, no matter how small it is. While overcoming
> > > our history's dark
> > > > side is not pleasant, it is something we must actively
> > > do every day.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Derrick Skaug
> > > > ASWSU Vice-President Elect
> > > > Pullman
> > > >
> > > > __________
> > > >
> > > > Indeed.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Saundra Lund
> > > > Moscow, ID
> > > >
> > > > The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for
> > > good people to do
> > > > nothing.
> > > > ~ Edmund Burke
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > =======================================================
> > > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > > http://www.fsr.net
> > > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > > =======================================================
> > > >
> > >
> > > =======================================================
> > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > http://www.fsr.net <http://www.fsr.net/>
> > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > =======================================================
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ======================================================= List
> > > services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
> > > communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net
> > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > =======================================================
> > >
> > > =======================================================
> > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > http://www.fsr.net
> > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > <mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > =======================================================
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> > > art.deco.studios at gmail.com <mailto:art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
> > >
> > >
> > > =======================================================
> > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > http://www.fsr.net
> > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > =======================================================
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ======================================================= List services
> > > made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the
> > > Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > =======================================================
> > >
> > >
> > > =======================================================
> > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > http://www.fsr.net
> > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > =======================================================
> >
> >
>
>
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