[Vision2020] Question, V-Peeps . . .

Sun Mar 25 12:53:06 PDT 2012

The courage my dear friend Rosemary demonstrates here is far, far more valuable to society -- as well as being a much more loving, true witness to the God we both worship -- than the insipid "tolerance" of those who, lacking much conviction about anything that doesn't directly seem to offend or affect them, are willing to "just get along" because it's a hell of a lot easier.

It is certainly easier.  But God forbid we use that as the standard for our own actions.  You don't strike me as someone that shallow, and yet you appear to have no understanding of why "tolerating" the intolerable (examples Rosemary and I, as well as Saundra and Tom, have all provided) is a virtue.  If I held to not a shred of religious conviction, I would be deeply disturbed by Wilson and his mates -- their teachings as well as their actions.  However, I hold very deeply to my Christian faith, owing my very life, temporal and eternal, to my God and trying to serve the Spirit and Savior with all that I have.  It's for that reason that I oppose as strenuously as I do Wilson's perversion of all that it means to think, live, act, and engage Christianly.  God doesn't NEED my defense, but God does require my obedience, and worship-compelled obedience to God requires that every fibre of my being confront evil around me.  That evil here is done in Christ's name only makes my resolve more profound.

I just about never confront, criticize, or antagonize those who identify as non-believers; the exceptions have been Dick Cheney and Rush Limbaugh, both of whom gained much of their social and political legitimacy via the appalling lack of discernment shown by Christians.  Non-Christians don't do anything to pollute, pervert, or prevent the spread of the Gospel.  

Wilson does.  So while he aims his "Serrated Edge" at those on the outside, I fully intend, however lonely it sometimes is, to rebuke and confront him from the inside.  I'm truly sorry you and others don't see that as very civic-minded.  

It's just that, when I do any bridge-building, I prefer to not do so in the service of making it easier for wolves to attack the innocent.  

Keely
www.keely-prevailingwinds.com

From: donaldrose at cpcinternet.com
To: v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm; godshatter at yahoo.com; ngier006 at gmail.com
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 10:03:07 -0700
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Question, V-Peeps . . .

Paul,  I think we can agree, Paul, that deeply held religious beliefs influence both our public and private lives.  Doug, his elders, deacons and congregation members proactively seek a theocratic model of government – a notion shaped directly by their religious beliefs.  Why in the world would it be in my best interest to overlook (under the pretense of being a good neighbor) religious tenets that places all that I hold dear in peril? I find that Doug Wilson’s  (et al)  world view scientifically ignorant, culturally and socially repressive, and morally repugnant.   Are you comfortable with the stoning of gay or lesbian people?  Doug Wilson is.  Do you think women must be under the headship of men (fathers or husbands) to please God?  Doug Wilson does. Do you think a few lucky people are preselected before birth to be a member of a religious covenant that automatically bestows a “saved” i.e., a get to heaven free, ticket exclusively on them?  Doug Wilson and his congregation are counting on it.  Why don’t you understand that  given the opportunity these folks would happily, indeed eagerly, legislate their religious views on the rest of us without mercy.  You think Calvin (the theological hero of all Kirkers) was a gentle, tolerant man?  In your dreams, Paul. Perhaps it is the case that you are able to overlook Kirkers defense of antebellum slavery.  I can not.  You may be comfortable with their patriarchal approach to family dynamics.  I am not.  The subservient role of women and girls is amply demonstrated in Doug’s writing but even more so in the writing of his indoctrinated (Stockhold syndrome????)  wife and daughters.  These adult women delight (apparently) in referring to themselves as “girls” and consistently portray women and girls as a weaker vessel who must be ever vigilant that the sins of Mother Eve (which because of gender are ever lurking just below the surface) do not cause them to stumble. Husbands and fathers are literally their God given masters.  They must quell any rebellion in themselves and their daughters against this lawful leadership.  Examples of this brainwashed thinking and not so subtle self-loathing may be found (but are not limited to) here:http://www.feminagirls.com/2012/03/12/daughters-and-boredom/http://www.feminagirls.com/2012/02/29/on-misreading-daughters/http://www.feminagirls.com/2012/02/23/the-double-think/ Along with your perspective on global warming do you also join with them in defending the notion that intelligent design is a valid and rational explanation of life on earth?  Do you also hold the conviction that the earth is approximately six thousand years old? My point is this, Paul.  We are what we hold dear.  The old Rodney King theory – Why can’t we all get along? – works fine if the topic is limited to issues concerning the size of a new dog park.  It starts to fray when we are discussing fundamental choices of culture and governance.  Your argument that those who are disdainful of Doug Wilson and his ideologically programmed congregation are the intolerant ones is almost (but not quite) funny.  The King of Sneer and Smear, who you apparently think is just a regular guy, ignores the fact that he happily entertains his followers with  hateful terms like poof,  nigger, and tar baby .  Those words ought to make you sick to your stomach . . . if they don’t it is clear to me that your tolerant acceptance of Doug Wilson’s values and choice of discourse resonates with your own – or, you are too lazy, cowardly or indifferent to stand against him.   More importantly, those good, kind, helpful church members you think so highly of also find his language witty, acceptable, and accurate.  They support Doug Wilson because they agree with him.  They agree with him about southern slavery, the role of women as the “crown” of her husband – think of that, Paul, women are accessories, like a purse or a hat, not a person in their own right, and that science is based not on independent, methodical, repeatable investigation.  They long for and pray for  the day when we are under the oppressive yoke of  Old Testament biblical laws and punishments. Bullies and tyrants flourish in the polite climate of live and let live you advocate. My friends and I will not stand silently (aka “tolerantly”) by without challenging the heinous philosophy and pure self-aggrandizing racism, sexism, and homophobic  bullshit which follows from Doug Wilson’s pen and mouth.  These issues are polarizing because they truly do separate the sheep from the goats, and I will call out and expose Billy Goat Wilson as long as I have breath in my body.  Rose Huskey   From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Saundra Lund
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 10:32 PM
To: 'Paul Rumelhart'; 'Nicholas Gier'
Cc: 'vision2020'
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Question, V-Peeps . . . In part, Paul wrote:“For example, a few years ago people on this list were suggesting that we boycott any business run by Christ Church members because of some conflict people on this list had with Doug.” What a selective memory you have, Paul!!!  Actually, what started the whole boycott thing was Christ Church members boycotting local businesses with which they disagreed.  That went on for years before there was any discussion of personal conscientious spending decisions by some as opposed to the organized boycotts by Christ Church.  And, that history was rehashed for you – you participated in it – so you’re not ignorant of the background. Funny that you only remember – and repeat – part of the story that fits into your stereotyping while ignoring the cause.  Why is that, Paul? And, you dislike the “Intolerista” thing.  Take it up with Christ Church since they are the ones who decided to make up the word & apply it to any who challenged them.  And, they are the ones who still apply the label to anyone who disagrees with them.  They sell lectures about it and write articles about it and preach about it and talk about it at their silly conferences here and elsewhere and their supporters have it all over their blogs.  It’s a regular part of their vocabulary used as a pejorative to describe people who challenge their deep-seated desire for and stealth attempts at theocracy, pure and simple. Finally, I’m weary of repeating it, but we’ll give it yet another try for you simply because it offends me that you continue to not be honest.  The objection to Christ Church isn’t that they choose to worship & believe a theological distortion with which we disagree – there are more than a couple of local churches that fit into that category. Rather, it’s that they advocate for a theocracy in which the law will force all of us to behave in the ways they want and punish those who don’t and deny opportunities to others.  They want the benefits of being considered a church without following the rules required for the benefits they demand and abuse.  “Live & let live” isn’t something they accept.  They relish being divisive and waging a culture war against those of us who don’t share their beliefs.  They are intolerant. It really is that simple, Paul, and I truly don’t understand why you refuse to accept that’s the case for many/the majority of us who have been labeled “Intoleristas” by the Kirk.  Further, it’s offensive that you continue to reject explanations contrary your preferred stereotyping that you’ve been given time and time again and instead repeatedly trot out the trite attacks you know aren’t honest.  It’s like you refuse to listen to those you attack because it’s doesn’t fit into the picture you want to have.  IOW, you have a real bias against those of us who aren’t interested in a theocracy, truly believe in and are willing to fight for our constitutional guarantee of freedom of – and from – religion. If you consider that a “sh*tstorm,” so be it.  SaundraMoscow, ID The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.~ Edmund Burke   From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Paul Rumelhart
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 8:29 PM
To: Nicholas Gier
Cc: vision2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Question, V-Peeps . . . 
You know what?  It actually is intolerance.  The Christ Church leadership may not be stellar citizens according to your criteria, but I see so much ridicule and hatred directed at them on this list that I fail to see it as anything other than intolerance.  For example, a few years ago people on this list were suggesting that we boycott any business run by Christ Church members because of some conflict people on this list had with Doug.  I don't even remember what it was.  A tolerant community would welcome people of all faiths, whether or not they thought their leadership were screw-ups.

This isn't directed at you, personally, by the way.  It's just something that has bothered me as a long-time Vision2020 subscriber.  I'm saying this in response to your post because I find you to be one of the more rational people on this list.  Myself, I hope they manage to build the cathedral of their dreams, whatever that might be.  The same goes for any other religious group out there.  More power to them.

I just think that a more welcoming approach might be worth a try someday.  Every single Christ Church member that I have spent more than a few minutes interacting with has turned out to be a nice, helpful person.  More so than your average person, even.  

I'm not just suggesting that we be more tolerant of them because I happen to know a few members of their church.  If this was a Muslim group, witches, Satanists (of whatever variety), atheists, Scientologists, or any other minority religious group, I'd be suggesting the same thing.  Welcome them to the community because they are people like we all are.  It doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.  

I'm not trying to say that people shouldn't complain about whatever it is they think Doug has been up to last, I just think that the "Intolerista" thing should be tossed out the window, as should the "not on the Palouse, not ever" idea.  If it were a group distinguished because of gender, race, or sexual preference and people were being proud of their intolerance to them, I would expect everyone on this list to be rightly offended.  I don't know why people intolerant of a religious tradition are being given a pass.

Anyway, rant over.  I'll go prepare myself for the veritable shitstorm that I suspect is on it's way.

Paul

On 03/24/2012 01:54 PM, Nicholas Gier wrote: Hail to the Vision!  I once had an image file of an archictect's general plan for the the Kirk's Kirk. (Did Wilson know that "kirk" is Afrikaans for the churches of racist Dutch Calvinists?)  It looked like a medieval cathedral and would take up the entire property.  They foolishly assumed that they could use Gritman's parking lots, but permission was wisely refused.  Their real estate agent tried to buy the large vacant piece to the southwest and Gritman refused to sell that as well. It's not intolerant to dislkike intellectual dishonesty, ordinary dishonesty, bigotry, and bad manners. I therefore sign myself a proud Intolerista, Nick On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Bradford Cranmer <bradford.cranmer at gmail.com> wrote:The name of that lot is The Christ Church Eternally Phantom Cathedral.On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> wrote:

Seeya round town, Moscow.

Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho

"If not us, who?
If not now, when?"

- Unknown

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=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
              http://www.fsr.net
         mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================   ======================================================= List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.               http://www.fsr.net          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com======================================================= 
=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
               http://www.fsr.net
          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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