[Vision2020] Question, V-Peeps . . .

Sun Mar 25 10:03:07 PDT 2012

Paul, 

I think we can agree, Paul, that deeply held religious beliefs influence
both our public and private lives.  Doug, his elders, deacons and
congregation members proactively seek a theocratic model of government - a
notion shaped directly by their religious beliefs.  Why in the world would
it be in my best interest to overlook (under the pretense of being a good
neighbor) religious tenets that places all that I hold dear in peril? I find
that Doug Wilson's  (et al)  world view scientifically ignorant, culturally
and socially repressive, and morally repugnant.   Are you comfortable with
the stoning of gay or lesbian people?  Doug Wilson is.  Do you think women
must be under the headship of men (fathers or husbands) to please God?  Doug
Wilson does. Do you think a few lucky people are preselected before birth to
be a member of a religious covenant that automatically bestows a "saved"
i.e., a get to heaven free, ticket exclusively on them?  Doug Wilson and his
congregation are counting on it.  Why don't you understand that  given the
opportunity these folks would happily, indeed eagerly, legislate their
religious views on the rest of us without mercy.  You think Calvin (the
theological hero of all Kirkers) was a gentle, tolerant man?  In your
dreams, Paul.

Perhaps it is the case that you are able to overlook Kirkers defense of
antebellum slavery.  I can not.  You may be comfortable with their
patriarchal approach to family dynamics.  I am not.  The subservient role of
women and girls is amply demonstrated in Doug's writing but even more so in
the writing of his indoctrinated (Stockhold syndrome????)  wife and
daughters.  These adult women delight (apparently) in referring to
themselves as "girls" and consistently portray women and girls as a weaker
vessel who must be ever vigilant that the sins of Mother Eve (which because
of gender are ever lurking just below the surface) do not cause them to
stumble. Husbands and fathers are literally their God given masters.  They
must quell any rebellion in themselves and their daughters against this
lawful leadership.  Examples of this brainwashed thinking and not so subtle
self-loathing may be found (but are not limited to) here:

http://www.feminagirls.com/2012/03/12/daughters-and-boredom/

http://www.feminagirls.com/2012/02/29/on-misreading-daughters/

http://www.feminagirls.com/2012/02/23/the-double-think/

Along with your perspective on global warming do you also join with them in
defending the notion that intelligent design is a valid and rational
explanation of life on earth?  Do you also hold the conviction that the
earth is approximately six thousand years old?

My point is this, Paul.  We are what we hold dear.  The old Rodney King
theory - Why can't we all get along? - works fine if the topic is limited to
issues concerning the size of a new dog park.  It starts to fray when we are
discussing fundamental choices of culture and governance.  Your argument
that those who are disdainful of Doug Wilson and his ideologically
programmed congregation are the intolerant ones is almost (but not quite)
funny.  The King of Sneer and Smear, who you apparently think is just a
regular guy, ignores the fact that he happily entertains his followers with
hateful terms like poof,
<http://www.dougwils.com/Postmodernism/what-the-goblins-under-the-mountain-c
all-it.html>  nigger
<http://www.dougwils.com/Moscow-Diversity-Cleansing/Bigotry-on-Stilts.html>
, and tar baby
<http://www.dougwils.com/Moscow-Diversity-Cleansing/Tarbaby-Twice.html>  .
Those words ought to make you sick to your stomach . . . if they don't it is
clear to me that your tolerant acceptance of Doug Wilson's values and choice
of discourse resonates with your own - or, you are too lazy, cowardly or
indifferent to stand against him.   More importantly, those good, kind,
helpful church members you think so highly of also find his language witty,
acceptable, and accurate.  They support Doug Wilson because they agree with
him.  They agree with him about southern slavery, the role of women as the
"crown" of her husband - think of that, Paul, women are accessories, like a
purse or a hat, not a person in their own right, and that science is based
not on independent, methodical, repeatable investigation.  They long for and
pray for  the day when we are under the oppressive yoke of  Old Testament
biblical laws and punishments.

Bullies and tyrants flourish in the polite climate of live and let live you
advocate. My friends and I will not stand silently (aka "tolerantly") by
without challenging the heinous philosophy and pure self-aggrandizing
racism, sexism, and homophobic  bullshit which follows from Doug Wilson's
pen and mouth.  These issues are polarizing because they truly do separate
the sheep from the goats, and I will call out and expose Billy Goat Wilson
as long as I have breath in my body. 

Rose Huskey

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
On Behalf Of Saundra Lund
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 10:32 PM
To: 'Paul Rumelhart'; 'Nicholas Gier'
Cc: 'vision2020'
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Question, V-Peeps . . .

In part, Paul wrote:

"For example, a few years ago people on this list were suggesting that we
boycott any business run by Christ Church members because of some conflict
people on this list had with Doug."

What a selective memory you have, Paul!!!  Actually, what started the whole
boycott thing was Christ Church members boycotting local businesses with
which they disagreed.  That went on for years before there was any
discussion of personal conscientious spending decisions by some as opposed
to the organized boycotts by Christ Church.  And, that history was rehashed
for you - you participated in it - so you're not ignorant of the background.

Funny that you only remember - and repeat - part of the story that fits into
your stereotyping while ignoring the cause.  Why is that, Paul?

And, you dislike the "Intolerista" thing.  Take it up with Christ Church
since they are the ones who decided to make up the word & apply it to any
who challenged them.  And, they are the ones who still apply the label to
anyone who disagrees with them.  They sell lectures about it and write
articles about it and preach about it and talk about it at their silly
conferences here and elsewhere and their supporters have it all over their
blogs.  It's a regular part of their vocabulary used as a pejorative to
describe people who challenge their deep-seated desire for and stealth
attempts at theocracy, pure and simple.

Finally, I'm weary of repeating it, but we'll give it yet another try for
you simply because it offends me that you continue to not be honest.  The
objection to Christ Church isn't that they choose to worship & believe a
theological distortion with which we disagree - there are more than a couple
of local churches that fit into that category.

Rather, it's that they advocate for a theocracy in which the law will force
all of us to behave in the ways they want and punish those who don't and
deny opportunities to others.  They want the benefits of being considered a
church without following the rules required for the benefits they demand and
abuse.  "Live & let live" isn't something they accept.  They relish being
divisive and waging a culture war against those of us who don't share their
beliefs.  They are intolerant.

It really is that simple, Paul, and I truly don't understand why you refuse
to accept that's the case for many/the majority of us who have been labeled
"Intoleristas" by the Kirk.  Further, it's offensive that you continue to
reject explanations contrary your preferred stereotyping that you've been
given time and time again and instead repeatedly trot out the trite attacks
you know aren't honest.  It's like you refuse to listen to those you attack
because it's doesn't fit into the picture you want to have.  IOW, you have a
real bias against those of us who aren't interested in a theocracy, truly
believe in and are willing to fight for our constitutional guarantee of
freedom of - and from - religion.

If you consider that a "sh*tstorm," so be it.

Saundra

Moscow, ID

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
nothing.

~ Edmund Burke

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
On Behalf Of Paul Rumelhart
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 8:29 PM
To: Nicholas Gier
Cc: vision2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Question, V-Peeps . . .

You know what?  It actually is intolerance.  The Christ Church leadership
may not be stellar citizens according to your criteria, but I see so much
ridicule and hatred directed at them on this list that I fail to see it as
anything other than intolerance.  For example, a few years ago people on
this list were suggesting that we boycott any business run by Christ Church
members because of some conflict people on this list had with Doug.  I don't
even remember what it was.  A tolerant community would welcome people of all
faiths, whether or not they thought their leadership were screw-ups.

This isn't directed at you, personally, by the way.  It's just something
that has bothered me as a long-time Vision2020 subscriber.  I'm saying this
in response to your post because I find you to be one of the more rational
people on this list.  Myself, I hope they manage to build the cathedral of
their dreams, whatever that might be.  The same goes for any other religious
group out there.  More power to them.

I just think that a more welcoming approach might be worth a try someday.
Every single Christ Church member that I have spent more than a few minutes
interacting with has turned out to be a nice, helpful person.  More so than
your average person, even.  

I'm not just suggesting that we be more tolerant of them because I happen to
know a few members of their church.  If this was a Muslim group, witches,
Satanists (of whatever variety), atheists, Scientologists, or any other
minority religious group, I'd be suggesting the same thing.  Welcome them to
the community because they are people like we all are.  It doesn't have to
be any more complicated than that.  

I'm not trying to say that people shouldn't complain about whatever it is
they think Doug has been up to last, I just think that the "Intolerista"
thing should be tossed out the window, as should the "not on the Palouse,
not ever" idea.  If it were a group distinguished because of gender, race,
or sexual preference and people were being proud of their intolerance to
them, I would expect everyone on this list to be rightly offended.  I don't
know why people intolerant of a religious tradition are being given a pass.

Anyway, rant over.  I'll go prepare myself for the veritable shitstorm that
I suspect is on it's way.

Paul

On 03/24/2012 01:54 PM, Nicholas Gier wrote: 

Hail to the Vision! 

I once had an image file of an archictect's general plan for the the Kirk's
Kirk. (Did Wilson know that "kirk" is Afrikaans for the churches of racist
Dutch Calvinists?)  It looked like a medieval cathedral and would take up
the entire property.  They foolishly assumed that they could use Gritman's
parking lots, but permission was wisely refused.  Their real estate agent
tried to buy the large vacant piece to the southwest and Gritman refused to
sell that as well.

It's not intolerant to dislkike intellectual dishonesty, ordinary
dishonesty, bigotry, and bad manners.

I therefore sign myself a proud Intolerista,

Nick 

On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Bradford Cranmer
<bradford.cranmer at gmail.com> wrote:

The name of that lot is The Christ Church Eternally Phantom Cathedral.

On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> wrote:

Seeya round town, Moscow.

Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho

"If not us, who?
If not now, when?"

- Unknown

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=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
              http://www.fsr.net
         mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================

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 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
               http://www.fsr.net
          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================

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