[Vision2020] WTF?

Ted Moffett starbliss at gmail.com
Fri Mar 9 15:30:11 PST 2012 

Turning solar or wind energy into hydro as you mention is one solution to
supplying baseline power from intermittent solar or wind.

What is surprising is that solar thermal (not photovoltaic!) with
thermal storage is already being applied in the US to supply energy at
night from daytime solar generation, turning daytime solar into 24 hour
baseline power, while we don't hear much about this technology in the
media, it seems.

The potential for this technology in the sunny lower latitude areas of the
US is huge!

Also on homes, solar thermal can supply heat that in the long term is cost
effective, energy efficient, even in our higher latitude, if I can believe
what I was told by a Moscow homeowner who has installed such a system on
his roof, who in a direct conversation indicated a cost analysis showed his
system would pay for itself over time.  I'd describe where this system is
in Moscow, which is obvious looking at the roof while walking by on the
sidewalk, but I don't want to encourage more curious visitors to the
residence in question.

Article below on this subject:
Molten salt keeps solar power flowing

Martin LaMonica

November 30, 2011 7:59 AM

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-57333789-54/molten-salt-keeps-solar-power-flowing/

BrightSource Energy will add molten salt storage to upcoming concentrating
solar power plants, touting the benefits of solar thermal technology over
low-cost solar photovoltaic technology.

By storing solar energy in molten salt, BrightSource Energy can now build
one less solar power plant.

The company said today that it is adding energy storage to three planned
solar projects that will supply power to utility Southern California
Edison.

Instead of building seven power plants to provide about 4 million
megawatt-hours per year, BrightSource now expects to be able to meet that
with six concentrating solar plants to be built over the next six years,
including three that will have storage. It is now constructing its first
project, the Ivanpah Solar Electric Generating System, which will not have
storage.

BrightSource's plants use a field of computer-controlled mirrors that
concentrate sunlight onto a tower. The heat creates steam, which is used to
generate electricity in a conventional turbine. The storage system keeps
molten salt in tanks and produces steam as needed.

By providing power to the grid after the sun goes down, BrightSource can
earn more money from its plant during peak demand times and generally lower
the cost of solar, the company said.
 Related stories

   - BrightSource adds salt for solar power at
night<http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20087731-54/brightsource-adds-salt-for-solar-power-at-night/>
   - Solar power plant switches to PV from
thermal<http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20094105-54/solar-power-plant-switches-to-pv-from-thermal/>
   - Rooftop solar prices fall
'precipitously'<http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20107289-54/rooftop-solar-prices-fall-precipitously/>

Storage also helps give solar thermal technologies an advantage compared
with solar phototoltaic panels, which have plummeted in cost over the past
three years because of lower silicon prices and high-volume manufacturing
in China. A number of large solar projects in the U.S. have abandoned
concentrating solar thermal
technologies<http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20094105-54/solar-power-plant-switches-to-pv-from-thermal/>for
flat-plate solar photoltaic panels because of cost.

BrightSource said that its storage system will allow solar to replace
fossil fuel plants rather than supplement them and avoid the need for
natural gas back-up power. Earlier this year, California passed a law
encouraging development of grid storage, which helped bring the addition of
storage to BrightSource's plants, it said.

----------------------------------------

Vision2020 Post: Ted Moffett


On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Gier, Nicholas <ngier at uidaho.edu> wrote:

> **
>
> Good Morning Visionaries:
>
> In Denmark (which is already carbon with several islands carbon negative)
> excess wind power is sent to Norway to pump water back up in their
> hydropower projects, and, on a lesser scale, used to produce hydrogen gas.
> Furthermore, Israel and Denmark are the only countries--using American
> technology--that are experimenting with storing excess wind power in the
> batteries of thousands of parked electric cars.
>
> For one carbon negative Danish island see my column attached. Here is the
> epigraph for the columns: "We are a conservative farming community. We are
> only normal people, not some special people."--Joergen Tranberg, Samsoe
> Island farmer
>
> Where there is a political will there are many ways to a carbon free
> future.  The U.S. is horrible at a common political will. If conservative
> Danish farmers can do it, why can't conservative Americans?
>
> Nick
>
> A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they
> shall never sit in.
>
> -Greek proverb
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com on behalf of Art Deco
> Sent: Thu 3/8/2012 10:36 AM
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] WTF?
>
> Large capacity storage:  That is why electrolysis of water using the wind
> power is a possible solution.  It takes into account the variablilty of
> wind and solar power and provides a means of storage and regeneration when
> the power is needed.  This isn't my idea.  The idea was around from the
> late 1960s.
>
> w.
>
> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Ultimately, the problem with wind power is that it's not a constant load
> > solution.  We need some kind of energy storage solution that is
> > cost-effective, efficient, and high capacity.  Then we can use wind and
> > solar to recharge the energy storage system and be buffered from the
> > vagaries of wind speed and cloud cover.  Without that, we end up with a
> lot
> > of our windmills not moving and our solar panels not receiving enough
> > sunlight some of the time and falling short at others.  We also need a
> > smarter electrical grid that can handle the fluctuations better and be
> > smart enough to route energy to these energy storage systems when needed.
> > If the government wants to spend money on renewable energy, I would say
> > spend it on electrical grid upgrades and large-capacity energy storage
> > first.  Or nuclear, which actually *is* a base-load solution.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >   ------------------------------
> > *From:* Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
> > *To:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> > *Sent:* Thursday, March 8, 2012 8:04 AM
> > *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] WTF?
>
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > It is a complex subject. But does it make sense to pay for power not
> > produced when water can be left through the dams free?
> >
> > Those of us with $200 - $300 per month electricity bills fail to believe
> > the cheapness argument.
> >
> > w.
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 10:03 PM, Ron Force <rforce2003 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > I think it's something like this:
> > Wind power is currently not price competitive with hydro-power or natural
> > gas without state laws that require "green energy" and tax breaks. The
> cost
> > of the machinery to electrolyze water, store the hydrogen, and turn it
> back
> > into electricity would add to the already non-competitive cost of wind
> > power.
> >
> > The Whistling Ridge project, just approved by Gregoire over the
> objections
> > of conservationists, is on hold by the developers for economic reasons--
> > the price of electricity is so low they can't make it pencil out.
> >
> > Ron Force
> > Moscow Idaho USA
> >   ------------------------------
> > *From:* Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
> > *To:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 7, 2012 6:03 PM
> > *Subject:* [Vision2020] WTF?
>
> >
> > Why not use the excess power to electrolyze water into hydrogen and
> > oxygen, store these gases, then use them to generate electricity when the
> > demand is greater?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/07/wind-power-companies-paid-to-not-produce/?test=latestnews
> >
> > --
> > Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> > art.deco.studios at gmail.com
> >
> > =======================================================
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >               http://www.fsr.net
> >           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <Vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > =======================================================
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> > art.deco.studios at gmail.com
> >
> > =======================================================
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >               http://www.fsr.net
> >           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <Vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > =======================================================
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> art.deco.studios at gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> =======================================================
>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>               http://www.fsr.net
>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
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