[Vision2020] About Evidence

Wed Jul 18 14:07:35 PDT 2012

I think people should trust their conscious as God.  I guess that's where Donovan and I differ and we'll have to leave it that.  Donovan can follow whatever he thinks God wants him do, and I'll follow my conscience.  What can be a fairer / simpler solution than this?  Let me guess...it's Donovan's way or the highway straight to Hell.  I think I'll pass on Donovan's way unless my conscience happens to lead me down the same path that God has staked for him.

-Scott

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 10:33:38 -0700
From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] About Evidence
To: scooterd408 at hotmail.com; philosopher.joe at gmail.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com

Scott,

I don't think people should completely trust their conscious as God. Nothing else a person has is perfect, why think their consciousness is? No thought process is perfect as to never be wrong. And while nobody will ever reach perfection, we should all be attempting to improve our minds, understanding of others, and assessing our judgments and beliefs. There is a saying that asks, "If you haven't changed your mind are sure you still have one?"

God is the only perfection, and He is the mightiest. So, we should all strive to be on His side. Everything else is weaker and wrong.

Donovan J. Arnold

From: Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>
To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com; philosopher.joe at gmail.com 
Cc: viz <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 10:24 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] About Evidence

> Yes, it does. So it is best to make sure you are on the same side as the mightiest. 

This I do not agree with.  I think it's best for everyone to follow their own conscience - if they have one.  Your conscience is your God.  You've created it in your own image (or maybe vice versa).  And I say this without equivocation.  Anyone following their conscience who believes it's God's will that homosexuals be denied marriage should strive to deny them marriage.  And they've done this - and successfully.  I don't think bans such as this are right because they result in inequality which I think is wrong - but folks with the power (or might) have called the shots on this.  Thankfully (in my opinion) in the United States, we have a Constitution with a 14th Amendment Equal Protection clause that can trump (with all its might) even what a majority of the electorate believes 'is against God's
 will'.  And laws discriminating against marriage based solely on gender, which is predetermined prior to birth, will be overturned as unconstitutional.  It's as plain as day - except maybe to those who will cling to the notion that 'it's against God's will'.

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 08:22:20 -0700
From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] About Evidence
To: scooterd408 at hotmail.com; philosopher.joe at gmail.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com

"The bottom line to all of this is 'might makes right'. "--Scott Dredge

Yes, it does. So it is best to make sure you are on the same side as the mightiest. 

Donovan J. Arnold

From: Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>
To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com; philosopher.joe at gmail.com 
Cc: viz <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 9:10 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] About Evidence

Donovan,

The bottom line to all of this is 'might makes right'.  Checkmate.

-Scott

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 08:06:29 -0700
From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
To: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] About Evidence

Joe writes;

"God can do anything. If what is right and what is wrong were defined by him, he could redefine things at will and make it wrong to eat toast and right to rob and steal. Does that make sense to you? Not too me. This view -- the divine command view -- makes morality relative just like the the majority opinion view."

The definition of moral is to do what is right, not wrong. Without a definition of what is right or wrong nothing can be moral or immoral. God decides what is wrong or right. Otherwise the definition would fall on people. Then people would be overruling God on what was right and wrong and thus what was moral and immoral. They would be telling their creator and master what is acceptable behavior or not. It would be dogs telling there owners how it can behave or third graders telling their teacher the classroom rules.  Does that make sense to you?

It is true, however, God could change what is right to wrong and what is wrong to right. And at that point what was wrong would be right, and what is right would become wrong. He has the power and authority to do this just as lawmakers can change what is legal to what is illegal and make what is illegal once again legal. God gets to define right and wrong, and lawmakers get to decide  legal and illegal. It is not the actions themselves that make them legal, illegal, moral or immoral, but the authority behind those decisions. 

Is the North Pole still not the North Pole just because it moves? is the Earth still not required to spin around the Sun even though the Sun moves relentlessly around the galaxy? Can the Moon leave the Earth and still be called the Moon? God can move right and wrong every year. We still have to follow it. 

Donovan J. Arnold

From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
To: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> 
Cc: Chasuk <chasuk at gmail.com>; viz <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] About Evidence

God can do anything. If what is right and what is wrong were defined by him, he could redefine things at will and make it wrong to eat toast and right to rob and steal. Does that make sense to you? Not too me. This view -- the divine command view -- makes morality relative just like the the majority opinion view. 

On Jul 18, 2012, at 4:17 AM, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:

By definition, it is not possible to live a moral life and denounce God. There is no absolute definition of right or wrong in any situation without a God to define it or regard it as such. All actions would be amoral with positive or negative consequences depending on the person and their individual perspective. At best, right and wrong would be defined by the majority or people. Since most people consider denouncing the existence of God, and preaching against him as immoral, an atheist would not be moral or living a moral life. An atheist could live a life which they had more of a positive impact on people than a negative. 

Regarding Einstein, he believed in God. He belonged to the Jewish religion. If he did not, he along with many other notable and talented scientists would have remained in Germany. If that occurred, Germany would have developed the nuclear bomb along with their rocket instead of the US. That is an example of where the world is better off because of religion. 

Donovan J. Arnold

From: Chasuk <chasuk at gmail.com>
To: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> 
Cc: lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>; viz <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] About Evidence

Speaking as an atheist, I don't need belief in God or gods to live a moral life.

Atheism is the lack of belief in deity, nothing more, nothing less.

As for the Einstein quote, Einstein also wrote this:

"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product
of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still
primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No
interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."

And of his own Jewishness he wrote:

"For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the
most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly
belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no
different quality for me than all other people. As far as my
experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although
they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power.
Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them."

Chas

On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 9:51 PM, Donovan
 Arnold
<donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Some beliefs provide motivation to fly jets into tall buildings, and some
> convince parents to withhold medication to sick children. Some beliefs
> promote misogyny, racism, and homophobia."
>
> And atheism teaches us none of it is wrong, as there is no God, just
> science.
>
> "Science without religion is lame"--Albert Einstein.
>
> Donovan J. Arnold
>
> From: Chasuk <chasuk at gmail.com>
> To: lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>
> Cc: viz <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 10:28 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] About Evidence
>
> There are not 7 billion different belief systems, or anywhere near
> that number. At best, there are a half dozen, regurgitated and
> recapitulated into a fistful of semi-unique varieties. And some
> beliefs are harmful. Some beliefs provide motivation to fly jets into
> tall buildings, and some convince parents to withhold medication to
> sick children. Some beliefs promote misogyny, racism, and homophobia.
> Not all beliefs are equal.
>
>
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