[Vision2020] About Evidence

Tue Jul 17 20:07:25 PDT 2012

If you think that Atheism / Theism is choice (similar to maybe sexual orientation), then prove it and please write and tell us all about your conversion experience over to a true believer in God.  Otherwise you're just blowing smoke, but by all means continue to do so.  I'm not trying to censor you at all.  If anything, I'm giving you more opportunity to continue this ridiculous thread.  Cut loose!  You might find some some followers...er...but I guess you might not want that being anti religious and anti organized religion and all.

Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 19:39:05 -0700
From: art.deco.studios at gmail.com
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] About Evidence

You are simply reasserting your position without responding to what I posted.

Further, your writing of:

"...why 
don't you simply just exercise your first amendment right of freedom of 
religion as well as freedom of assembly to hang out in a group of your 
own ilk (an atheistic church if you will) and tell each other what your 
ideas of 'truth' and 'the way things ought to be"

is a poorly disguised attempt to squelch discussion on the subject, a strategy that is not only anti-freedom of expression, but one that is very likely to fail. 

Fact:  discussions of religious belief do change beliefs -- witness the loss of religious belief in western Europe in recent years and the loss of faith in organized religion by the younger generations in this country.

The exploration of belief was commented upon by 19th century American philosopher Charles Sanders Peirce, the father of pragmatism, in a very influential, but not easy to read essay entitled "The Fixation of Belief."

http://www.peirce.org/writings/p107.html

For those undaunted by Scott's attempt at censorship, the essay might be found to be a refreshing, interesting, and provocative read.

w.

On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 5:14 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:

You can continue harping on it, but it's a waste of time.  Spirituality 
or lack thereof is a human attribute.  There are over 7 billion 
different belief systems (atheism included) presently active in the 
world today.  Pick whichever one suits your needs, I'll do the same, and
 everyone else will too.  If you want to bitch and moan about other's 
substandard (in your opinion) beliefs and the superiority (in your own 
mind) of of your own beliefs, well then carry on.  Good grief - why 
don't you simply just exercise your first amendment right of freedom of 
religion as well as freedom of assembly to hang out in a group of your 
own ilk (an atheistic church if you will) and tell each other what your 
ideas of 'truth' and 'the way things ought to be'.  For what it's worth 
(nothing maybe?), I'd hate to think what a screwed up place this planet 
would be if everyone had the same thought process as me and the same 
belief system that I have.

-Scott

Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 16:54:17 -0700
From: art.deco.studios at gmail.com
To: vision2020 at moscow.com

Subject: Re: [Vision2020] About Evidence

The problem is this:  Beliefs determine values and behavior.

Hence it is important that that beliefs be as accurate as possible.  We don't successfully send people to the moon based on fantasy, untested, and/or untestable theories.  Nor do we inject people with various serums to prevent and/or cure disease successfully based on fantasy, untested, or untestable theories.  Etc.

How do we find successful values/behaviors to solve problems, including social issues?  By considering relevant declarative statements as knowledge claims and insisting on evidence that can be tested and retested be provided to support those claims.

There are always alternative theories, especially about social issues.  However cumbersome, and sometimes with many missteps, demanding the testing of knowledge claims generally winnows out the ones in error.

There are a multitude of various religions and sects of the same religion world.  Each inconsistent with each other in significant ways.  Each has some very adamant adherents who believe their view of the world is correct, and those work, sometimes violently, to proscribe the behavior of all the rest of us.  

Currently, the issue of whether to legalize marriage between couples of the same gender is an example of a particular set of religious persons attempting to proscribe the behavior of all based on their interpretation of and their belief in the truth of the ancient writings to which they subscribe.

The problem, of course, is that so far there has been no successful method to determine which, if any, of the multitude of religious beliefs are true.  The inference among others is that if there is a benevolent god, why is it keeping the truth so unfathomable and unclear.  Another inference is that the untestable is hardly a successful solution to practical behavioral issues/problems.

As a nonbeliever, I strive to base my behavioral decisions based on as accurate knowledge claims as possible.  I resent being told what I can do, and resent what others are told what to do based on what can most charitably be called in the starkness of requiring knowledge claims to be supported merely religious fantasies and superstitions.

I believe that this position is similar to most nonbelievers.

Why do I harp on it?  Take the above and add:

"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty."  --Wendall Phillips

Failing to express the problems of religious belief and the problems of such that plague humankind is the same as tacitly approving the dictatorship of untestable and harmful fantasies. 

w.

On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:

The God Damned Atheists can be more annoying than Fundys.  I think 
anyone who tries to push their religion (or lack thereof) on anyone else
 is a complete phony.  If you really believe in God (or don't) you 
should be secure in that belief such that you don't need to convince 
anyone else of this.  If you're an atheist only you know what's in your 
heart, otherwise only you and God know what's in your heart.

Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 07:08:54 -0700
From: art.deco.studios at gmail.com

To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] About Evidence

Atheism and Critical Thinking (Video)http://mysticpolitics.com/atheism-and-critical-thinking-video/

July 17, 2012

			A series of videos from UK artist and secular humanist QualiaSoup discussing critical thinking, science, philosophy and the natural world.

Part 1 – The burden of proof; Makers of supernatural claims have an inescapable burden of proof.

Part 2 - Lack of belief in gods; Explaining the concept, refuting common objections and giving a number of reasons that atheists are sometimes ‘fervent’.

Part 3 - Critical Thinking; A look at some of the principles of critical thinking.

Part 4 - Putting faith in its place; Faith has no place demanding agreement or punishing disagreement.

Part 5 - Open-mindedness; A look at some of
 the flawed thinking that prompts people who believe in certain 
non-scientific concepts to advise others who don’t to be more 
open-minded.

Part 6 - Arguing with ghosts; A brief look at the pointless exercise of telling people, rather than asking them, what they believe.

Part 7 - It *could* just be coincidence; This video shows how probability theory is sufficient to explain even seemingly remarkable coincidences.

Part 8 - Skewed views of science; A look at the pitfalls of arguing against science from incomprehension or emotion.

Part 9 - The faith cake; This video challenges the claim that a belief in science requires equal faith to the belief in a god.

Part 10 - In the beginning, God created injustice; The impossible situation of Adam and Eve, and the unjust treatment they suffered from the ‘merciful and loving’ god.

Part 11 - Hell: an excessive punishment; Some believe atheists deserve an infinitely grislier fate than this, simply for doubting the existence of a being that doesn’t openly present itself. I’ve always been curious about that.

________________________
-- 
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
art.deco.studios at gmail.com

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 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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-- 
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
art.deco.studios at gmail.com

=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
               http://www.fsr.net
          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
======================================================= 		 	   		  

-- 
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
art.deco.studios at gmail.com

=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
               http://www.fsr.net
          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
======================================================= 		 	   		  
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