[Vision2020] About Evidence

Tue Jul 17 19:39:05 PDT 2012

You are simply reasserting your position without responding to what I
posted.

Further, your writing of:

"...why don't you simply just exercise your first amendment right of
freedom of religion as well as freedom of assembly to hang out in a group
of your own ilk (an atheistic church if you will) and tell each other what
your ideas of 'truth' and 'the way things ought to be"

is a poorly disguised attempt to squelch discussion on the subject, a
strategy that is not only anti-freedom of expression, but one that is very
likely to fail.

Fact:  discussions of religious belief do change beliefs -- witness the
loss of religious belief in western Europe in recent years and the loss of
faith in organized religion by the younger generations in this country.

The exploration of belief was commented upon by 19th century American
philosopher Charles Sanders Peirce, the father of pragmatism, in a very
influential, but not easy to read essay entitled "The Fixation of Belief."
http://www.peirce.org/writings/p107.html

For those undaunted by Scott's attempt at censorship, the essay might be
found to be a refreshing, interesting, and provocative read.

w.

On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 5:14 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>wrote:

>  You can continue harping on it, but it's a waste of time.  Spirituality
> or lack thereof is a human attribute.  There are over 7 billion different
> belief systems (atheism included) presently active in the world today.
> Pick whichever one suits your needs, I'll do the same, and everyone else
> will too.  If you want to bitch and moan about other's substandard (in your
> opinion) beliefs and the superiority (in your own mind) of of your own
> beliefs, well then carry on.  Good grief - why don't you simply just
> exercise your first amendment right of freedom of religion as well as
> freedom of assembly to hang out in a group of your own ilk (an atheistic
> church if you will) and tell each other what your ideas of 'truth' and 'the
> way things ought to be'.  For what it's worth (nothing maybe?), I'd hate to
> think what a screwed up place this planet would be if everyone had the same
> thought process as me and the same belief system that I have.
>
> -Scott
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 16:54:17 -0700
> From: art.deco.studios at gmail.com
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] About Evidence
>
>
> The problem is this:  Beliefs determine values and behavior.
>
> Hence it is important that that beliefs be as accurate as possible.  We
> don't successfully send people to the moon based on fantasy, untested,
> and/or untestable theories.  Nor do we inject people with various serums to
> prevent and/or cure disease successfully based on fantasy, untested, or
> untestable theories.  Etc.
>
> How do we find successful values/behaviors to solve problems, including
> social issues?  By considering relevant declarative statements as knowledge
> claims and insisting on evidence that can be tested and retested be
> provided to support those claims.
>
> There are always alternative theories, especially about social issues.
> However cumbersome, and sometimes with many missteps, demanding the testing
> of knowledge claims generally winnows out the ones in error.
>
> There are a multitude of various religions and sects of the same religion
> world.  Each inconsistent with each other in significant ways.  Each has
> some very adamant adherents who believe their view of the world is correct,
> and those work, sometimes violently, to proscribe the behavior of all the
> rest of us.
>
> Currently, the issue of whether to legalize marriage between couples of
> the same gender is an example of a particular set of religious persons
> attempting to proscribe the behavior of all based on their interpretation
> of and their belief in the truth of the ancient writings to which they
> subscribe.
>
> The problem, of course, is that so far there has been no successful method
> to determine which, if any, of the multitude of religious beliefs are
> true.  The inference among others is that if there is a benevolent god, why
> is it keeping the truth so unfathomable and unclear.  Another inference is
> that the untestable is hardly a successful solution to practical behavioral
> issues/problems.
>
> As a nonbeliever, I strive to base my behavioral decisions based on as
> accurate knowledge claims as possible.  I resent being told what I can do,
> and resent what others are told what to do based on what can most
> charitably be called in the starkness of requiring knowledge claims to be
> supported merely religious fantasies and superstitions.
>
> I believe that this position is similar to most nonbelievers.
>
> Why do I harp on it?  Take the above and add:
>
> "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty."  --Wendall Phillips
>
> Failing to express the problems of religious belief and the problems of
> such that plague humankind is the same as tacitly approving the
> dictatorship of untestable and harmful fantasies.
>
> w.
>
> On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>wrote:
>
>  The God Damned Atheists can be more annoying than Fundys.  I think anyone
> who tries to push their religion (or lack thereof) on anyone else is a
> complete phony.  If you really believe in God (or don't) you should be
> secure in that belief such that you don't need to convince anyone else of
> this.  If you're an atheist only you know what's in your heart, otherwise
> only you and God know what's in your heart.
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 07:08:54 -0700
> From: art.deco.studios at gmail.com
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: [Vision2020] About Evidence
>
>
> Atheism and Critical Thinking (Video)
> http://mysticpolitics.com/atheism-and-critical-thinking-video/<http://www.printfriendly.com/print/v2?url=http://mysticpolitics.com/atheism-and-critical-thinking-video/>
> July 17, 2012
> *A series of videos from UK artist and secular humanist QualiaSoup<http://www.youtube.com/user/QualiaSoup>discussing critical thinking, science, philosophy and the natural world.
> *
> Part 1 – *The burden of proof*; Makers of supernatural claims have an
> inescapable burden of proof.
> Part 2 - *Lack of belief in gods*; Explaining the concept, refuting
> common objections and giving a number of reasons that atheists are
> sometimes ‘fervent’.
> Part 3 - *Critical Thinking*; A look at some of the principles of
> critical thinking.
> Part 4 - *Putting faith in its place*; Faith has no place demanding
> agreement or punishing disagreement.
> Part 5 - *Open-mindedness*; A look at some of the flawed thinking that
> prompts people who believe in certain non-scientific concepts to advise
> others who don’t to be more open-minded.
> Part 6 - *Arguing with ghosts*; A brief look at the pointless exercise of
> telling people, rather than asking them, what they believe.
> Part 7 - *It *could* just be coincidence*; This video shows how
> probability theory is sufficient to explain even seemingly remarkable
> coincidences.
> Part 8 - *Skewed views of science*; A look at the pitfalls of arguing
> against science from incomprehension or emotion.
> Part 9 - *The faith cake*; This video challenges the claim that a belief
> in science requires equal faith to the belief in a god.
> Part 10 - *In the beginning, God created injustice*; The impossible
> situation of Adam and Eve, and the unjust treatment they suffered from the
> ‘merciful and loving’ god.
> Part 11 - *Hell: an excessive punishment*; Some believe atheists deserve
> an infinitely grislier fate than this, simply for doubting the existence of
> a being that doesn’t openly present itself. I’ve always been curious about
> that.
>
> ________________________
>
> --
> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> art.deco.studios at gmail.com
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
> --
> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> art.deco.studios at gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> ======================================================= List services made
> available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse
> since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com=======================================================
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-- 
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
art.deco.studios at gmail.com
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