[Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism

Sun Jan 1 10:56:24 PST 2012

Wayne,

Thanks for addressing the issues I raised. I do disagree with you re. the first Iraq war, as well as pre-emptive attacks etc in point 2, but really want to address your thought that the Supreme Court can/should address the constitutionality of such matters. I think it's unlikely the court can address any of these matters in a timely manner, or that it will. I think we ought not to elect people willing to abuse their power, and seize power they do not constitutionally possess, with the hope that the court will reign them in. Look what happened to the suit Anwar al-Awlaki's father filed. The Feds will seek to have such suits dismissed, and the courts will go along with the Feds.

If the courts do address these matters, my fear is that they will simply hand the government a blank check. Fine if you believe in such abuses. Repugnant to me.

Sunil

From: deco at moscow.com
To: Vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 19:25:12 -0800
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw:  On Ron Paul and Racism

Sunil,

1.  I believe the (second) war on Iraq was a huge 
mistake, but not the first.

2.  There are parts of the defense budget that need 
trimming.  However, without going into detail, we are faced with serious 
global predatory threats.  It would be foolish not to anticipate and to 
prepare for them.  I think much more effort needs to be made against cyber 
threats and waging cyber war.  Further, though not a Defense Department 
item, I think money needs to be spent in various effective ways to wage 
peace.  Unlike many, I believe in the very limited use of pre-emptive 
strikes, and very limited using lethal force, if necessary, in dealing with 
those terrorists who have murdered U.S. citizens in our country, territories, or 
havens like embassy/consular grounds or are seriously planning to do so.*  
I strongly believe in the right of self-defense both nationally and 
personally.

3.  I believe very strongly in due process and 
civil rights.  I am appalled by allowing imprisonment without due process 
and allowing search/seizure/snooping without court process. 

4.  I think many presidents, including Obama, have 
acted outside their constitutional powers.  However, it is the Supreme 
Court's opinion that matters here, not mine.  Given any of these issues, 
argument can be made on both sides *including the assignation of terrorists on 
foreign soil.  With respect to the latter, I believe the Supreme Court 
would agree that such actions are constitutional in limited circumstances.  
Sooner or later there will probably be test cases in the Supreme Court about the 
constitutionality of the above items.  There is one now about the use of 
ISPs and telecom companies helping law enforcement snoop without court process 
(this is going on in Latah County right now).

Some of the views above are consistent with some of what 
Ron Paul claims to believe.  However, as I said before:  He is a phony 
libertarian: he is against reproductive rights and other civil rights; he has 
vocally aligned himself on these matters with the religious right.  He has 
so far refused to repudiate racist and others crackpot views or disassociate 
himself from hate groups that support him.  His denial about the racist and 
other foolhardy remarks in his letters being his are far from convincing, but 
worst of all he has not repudiated the substance of those remarks.

As Tom Hansen said.  These matters are not the only 
issues.  To some they may be the most important like abortion or gay 
marriage is to others.  Despite his being a so-called free market believer, 
he appears to be clueless about how the economy actually works.

Uncompromising idealists, whatever flavor, seldom make 
good leaders.  There is too much uncertainty in our knowledge to trust 
someone who believes they are right on all issues and everyone who 
disagrees with them are wrong.

w.

From: Sunil Ramalingam 
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 6:12 PM
Cc: vision 2020 
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and 
Racism

Let's for one moment assume that Paul is a racist. I'm not saying 
he is, just assume he is so that issue doesn't need to be discussed for a 
minute.

Is he wrong on ending our wars? Is he wrong on cutting the 
defense budget? Is he wrong about the Patriot Act? Is he wrong about the 
Executive Branch seizing powers it should not have?

What say you, Keely, 
Wayne, Saundra, Tom?

Sunil

Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 17:20:01 -0800
From: godshatter at yahoo.com
To: 
deco at moscow.com
CC: Vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: On 
Ron Paul and Racism

He has admitted to putting 
out an investment newsletter that (as far as I can tell) was not one of the 
newsletters that printed the racist comments.  It had all sorts of 
conspiracy theories about what will happen to people trying to deal in large 
amounts of cash, most of which have come true - just not in the way he 
thought.  Try taking a large pile of cash through airport security and see 
how well that goes.

Another distraction attempt, supposedly a smoking 
gun, apparently succeeds in its goals.  Or maybe this is just jumping on 
the bandwagon, since it is the Daily Mail, after all.

Paul

On 
12/31/2011 04:44 PM, Art Deco wrote: 

  See:

  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2078217/Ron-Paul-racist-homophobic-newsletters-Video-taking-credit.html

  Scroll down to see the videos of Paul Himself 
  acknowledging the letters, etc.

  All javascript scripts must be allowed in 
  order to see the whole article including the videos.

  w.

  From: Paul Rumelhart 
  Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 3:52 PM
  To: keely 
  emerinemix 
  Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com 
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and 
  Racism

Does it matter whether or not the allegations are 
  true?  Or do we just call them out anyway?

Here is an article from 
  CBS News about the newsletters: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57345702-503544/ron-paul-disavows-racist-newsletters-under-his-name/

The 
  article contains a quote by Ron Paul on the issue:  

"When I was 
  out of Congress and practicing medicine full-time, a newsletter was published 
  under my name that I did not edit. Several writers contributed to the 
  product," he said. "For over a decade, I have publicly taken moral 
  responsibility for not paying closer attention to what went out under my 
  name."

I'd hate to see the man dragged over the coals for something he 
  might not have deserved solely because (for example) Jon Huntsman is losing to 
  Ron Paul in New Hampshire and has staked his campaign on a strong showing 
  there.

I got that last bit from this article: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57349712-503544/huntsman-calls-ron-paul-unelectable-because-of-racist-newsletters/

And 
  once again, this is only out there in order to distract us.  These people 
  could care less if it's even true.  It's just 
  convenient.

Paul

On 12/31/2011 02:44 PM, keely emerinemix wrote: 

    I don't think you're defending racism, racist behavior, or even 
    the wrongness of screaming "He's a racist!" at the slightest apparent 
    provocation.  That said, I think it's imperative that legitimate 
    indications that an individual's views on race/gender/class/civil 
    rights/culture are bigoted be called out, examined, and condemned -- and I 
    believe that the text of Ron Paul's newsletters are an example.  

Keely
www.keely-prevailingwinds.com

    Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 
    2011 14:41:13 -0800
From: jborden at datawedge.com
To: kjajmix1 at msn.com; v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm; vision2020 at moscow.com

    I’m 
    not *defending* racism, I’m commenting on the mere finger-pointing 
    and accusations being so charged that it’s a nuclear weapon in a political 
    arsenal.  

    It’s 
    used as a tool for distraction, and hence, theatrics.  (And, unless I 
    missed the mark, perhaps Mr. Rumelhart’s point).

    Insert 
    story of “crying wolf”.

    Jay

    From: keely 
    emerinemix [mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com] 
Sent: 
    Saturday, December 31, 2011 2:27 PM
To: Jay Borden; v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: 
    RE: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism

    Jay, I would rue 
    the day that racist behavior and bigoted views become irrelevant in how we 
    choose our leaders.  There are issues that truly good people can 
    disagree on; racism, however, is never the view of a "truly good person," 
    and in fact ought to, by virtue of popular outcry, immediately make a pariah 
    out of the one who embraces it.

Keely
www.keely-prevailingwinds.com

    Date: Sat, 31 
    Dec 2011 14:17:33 -0800
From: jborden at datawedge.com
To: v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: 
    Re: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism

    I 
    would agree with Paul’s statement… but I would word it a bit differently to 
    deflect some of the immediate hatred I’m sure will be heading my 
    way.

    I 
    would say that racism, like abortion and gay marriage are *USED* as 
    theatrical issues.  

    It’s 
    interesting as soon as any candidate becomes popular in the polls, some 
    wild-card story gets tossed about dealing with one of these issues.  
    Then it’s pressed as long as necessary until the candidate just “goes 
    away”.

    Rick 
    Perry (again, not a fan) was gaining traction… and then suddenly a story 
    about “Niggerhead” surfaced.  (He has since nearly imploded on his own, 
    but that’s a separate issue).

    Ron 
    Paul gains even more traction this time around in the polls… and suddenly 
    some story connecting HIM to racisim surfaces.  (I don’t recall 
    anything coming up about this story 4 years ago when he was running for 
    President).

    The 
    topics themselves are extremely important… but the *USE* of these 
    subjects has become nothing more than positioning and theatrical 
    tools.   

    Is 
    your opponent getting too much positive attention?  No problem… just 
    toss out one of these venomous statements (who cares whether it’s true or 
    not… just phrase it in the form of an “objective question” like Fox News 
    does to avoid slander/libel)… and then sit back and watch the 
    show.

    Once 
    some story making any of these accusations hits the public… it’s like 
    kryptonite… and it’s used as such. 

    Jay

    From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com 
    [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] 
    On Behalf Of Saundra Lund
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 
    12:03 PM
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: 
    Re: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism

    In 
    part, Paul wrote:
    “Racism, 
    like abortion and gay marriage, are all "theatrical issues".  They are 
    issues that are tossed out to the American public like scraps to hungry dogs 
    for them to fight over.  While they are important in and of themselves, 
    they are really meant to distract us from realizing that we have more power 
    than we think we do.”

    Yes, 
    I do suppose it’s a lot easier to look at issues like racism, abortion, and 
    gay marriage as “theatrical issues” when you’re not the minority 
    family unable to rent a home due to racism, and you’re not the 
    17-year-old incest victim forced to carry your granddaddy’s baby or risk 
    death from a backdoor abortion, and you’re not the lesbian at risk of 
    losing custody of your children born via IVF to your now-deceased 15 year 
    partner because her family never “approved” of the non-marriage.

    Yuppers 
    – I guess for some, it is a lot easier to take the position that those 
    issues, while “important,” really are just “theatrical issues” when one 
    isn’t the target, when one lacks of empathy . . . or when one lacks the 
    sense God gave a billy goat.

    Not 
    in my America.  I agree with Sue’s comment, “All rights and 
    even some privileges should belong to all citizens” and 
    shouldn’t depend on where in the US one lives.

    Paul 
    also wrote:
    “In 
    my opinion we should concentrate on our civil liberties . . .”

    I 
    guess I’m unclear as to how you define “civil liberties,” but reproductive 
    freedom & gay marriage both fit into my definition of the right of 
    privacy, which is an important US civil liberty.

    Saundra 
    Lund
    Moscow, 
    ID

    The 
    only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do 
    nothing.
    ~ 
    Edmund Burke

    From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com 
    [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] 
    On Behalf Of Paul Rumelhart
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 
    2011 9:37 AM
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: 
    [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism

    I 
    sent this only to Sue, when I meant to send it to the list.

    Paul

    ----- 
    Forwarded Message -----
From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
To: 
    Sue Hovey <suehovey at moscow.com> 

Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: 
    [Vision2020] On Ron Paul and Racism

    It 
    doesn't negate the evidence.  For what it's worth, he claims that he 
    didn't write those newsletters that were put out in his name.  Like 
    you've shown, a person can be compassionate and still be racist.  Being 
    racist is not a black and white thing, no pun intended.  It's something 
    that can change over a period of years.  I grew up in a casually racist 
    household, and had to unlearn much of that over the years, as did my 
    parents.  It's easy to fall into that trap when you grow up with it and 
    everyone around you thinks the same thing.  As society changed, so did 
    those around me, and so did I.

    I've 
    said this many times on the Viz:  I'm not looking for Jesus Christ or 
    Gandhi when I'm looking for a Presidential candidate to vote for.  I 
    want someone who will perform well in the job.

    So 
    the question is, assuming he is some kind of die-hard racist from the 
    sixties like he's being portrayed, is he going to deny blacks the right to 
    vote or serve on juries?

    Racism, 
    like abortion and gay marriage, are all "theatrical issues".  They are 
    issues that are tossed out to the American public like scraps to hungry dogs 
    for them to fight over.  While they are important in and of themselves, 
    they are really meant to distract us from realizing that we have more power 
    than we think we do.  In my opinion we should concentrate on our civil 
    liberties, and in stopping the steady power buildup for the Executive branch 
    that's been going on for years.  That's far more dangerous to us in the 
    short term than any of these hot button issues are.  Like Sunil said in 
    another post, it's all about priorities.

    Paul

    From: 
    Sue Hovey <suehovey at moscow.com>
To: 
    Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> 

Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: 
    [Vision2020] On Ron Paul and Racism

    It’s 
    a lovely story, Paul. And a powerful instance of Ron Paul’s compassion, but 
    how does it negate the evidence of his racism in those published 
    reports?  My Texas grandfather was a racist through and through, yet he 
    performed kind and generous acts to the people he belittled, and to whom he 
    would have denied the vote, the right to serve on juries (along with women) 
    and most especially the right to sit up front in public 
    transportation.  

    Sue 
    H.       

    From: 
    Paul 
    Rumelhart 

    Sent: 
    Friday, December 30, 2011 10:18 PM

    To: 
    vision2020 at moscow.com 

    Subject: 
    [Vision2020] On Ron Paul and Racism

    Here 
    is a video in response to allegations of racism being leveled at Ron 
    Paul.  It was made by "Revolution PAC", a "superPAC" whose sole purpose 
    is to get Ron Paul elected. It's entitled "The Compassion of Dr. Ron 
    Paul":

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Rv0Z5SNrF4

    If 
    we're going to attack Ron Paul with allegations of racism on the list, I 
    thought it might be nice to see what his side has to say.

    Paul

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of the Palouse since 
1994.

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