[Vision2020] A 2nd amendment argument against the NRA plan

Gary Crabtree jampot at roadrunner.com
Sun Dec 23 20:02:19 PST 2012


"1/ Mass shootings seem to be on the rise, maybe even since Aurora. Maybe that is a false perception on my part but the comparative number of mass shootings here as opposed to those in other countries is noticeable."

It is my understanding that gun violence in the US is trending downward over the last twenty years. When it comes to other countries a number for factors come into play. The biggest could be media scrutiny. Occurrences in our country receive big coverage, other countries much less. With that being said we have to look no further that our neighbor to the south. The have very stringent restrictions on private firearm ownership AND a major problem with firearm violence. The same is true in may south American countries and African countries. Plenty of violence, less statistical compilation, and less coverage in the media. Also see:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jul/23/facebook-posts/the-us-is-no-in-gun-violence-is-it/

2/ "...we'd have to do some economic studies to see whether the buy-back would be cost effective. Many communities have buy-back programs, so my guess is that they are cost effective but I don't know."

Most of the buy back programs appear to me to be effective enough in there own way however, most offer a relative pittance for the weapons turned in. (gift cards usually ranging in the $25.00 to 50.00 range) In return the programs gather in a generally motley assortment of old, obsolete, broken, and cheap weapons from folks who are obviously disinclined to have them much less use them in the commission of a crime. Refer back to the video that someone posted in the last couple days of a buy back program. You sure aren't seeing state of the art weaponry being turned in. I think that its fairly safe to say that the person who shelled out $1200.00 for a high end AR15 and topped it with a $2000.00 scope won't be giving it up for a meal for two coupon at the local muy bueno taco palace.

g




From: Joe Campbell 
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2012 5:52 PM
To: Gary Crabtree ; Moscow Vision 2020 
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A 2nd amendment argument against the NRA plan


Thanks, Gary. This is a nice article. Two comments, since I haven't finished the article and this is out of my area of expertise.

1/ Mass shootings seem to be on the rise, maybe even since Aurora. Maybe that is a false perception on my part but the comparative number of mass shootings here as opposed to those in other countries is noticeable.

2/ I don't see the collection of semiautomatics as an issue. As folks note, MOST who own semiautomatics are law abiding; more likely than not they know how to handle guns, have gun safes, etc. It would be unwise to demand that people turn in guns and some kind of buy-back program would need to be implemented. The best you can do perhaps is a/ encourage folks to turn-in their automatic weapons, and b/ confiscate weapons discovered during criminal investigations. And we'd have to do some economic studies to see whether the buy-back would be cost effective. Many communities have buy-back programs, so my guess is that they are cost effective but I don't know.

There was a NYT article about reducing crime in NYC. The key insight -- according to the article -- was that most crimes are crimes of opportunity. If you eliminate the "low-hanging fruit" most crimes are eliminated. We should find a policy with a limited impact on law-abiding citizens who are careful with their firearms yet make crimes of opportunity more difficult. 

3/ Obviously, as you've noted before, education is going to play a big role here, too. We need to let folks know that guns should be protected, educate people about the importance of gun safes, etc.



On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 1:47 PM, Gary Crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:

  An interesting and informative article on the topic de jour from a different perspective:

  http://kontradictions.wordpress.com/2012/08/09/why-not-renew-the-assault-weapons-ban-well-ill-tell-you/

  Many thanks to the off-list participant who sent this to me. It sums up the problem (or lack there of) far better then I ever could.

  g


  From: Joe Campbell 
  Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2012 12:56 PM
  To: Moscow Vision 2020 
  Subject: [Vision2020] A 2nd amendment argument against the NRA plan


  We've noted some specific criticisms of the NRA plan, raised by Saundra, Sunil, and others. Here is a general argument against the NRA plan which rests on some but not all of the specific criticisms. By the "NRA plan," I mean the plan to deal with our gun violence problem by putting armed forces in our schools (and presumably other public venues).

  Since it is the NRA plan, if it is a good plan, it should preserve and be consistent with our 2nd amendment rights. Those rights are based on the need for protection of either of two forms: (a) protection against tyrannical governments as well as (b) the protection of your life, your interests, and the lives and interests of your family and friends. Thus, the NRA plan is justified by appeal to the 2nd amendment to the extent that it is based on and secures these type-a and type-b protections. Will the NRA better protect us from the threat of tyrannical governments or the threats of mass murderers, spree shooters, and other lunatics?

  It is far from clear that the NRA plan will protect us from mass murderers and spree shooters and there is good reason to think that it will cause more harm. The fact is that these folks are SUICIDAL as well as homicidal. Until it can be shown that the NRA plan will protect us from harm rather than lead us to more harm it should not be taken seriously.

  What about the need for semi-automatic weapons in order to form militias against a tyrannical government? Given this, we need a plan that won't put restrictions on semi-automatic weapons. Yet I don't see how putting armed government forces in every school in the country is going to increase the possibility of forming a militia to overtake a tyrannical government. It strikes me that forming a police state within the school system is exactly the wrong thing to do if your concern is that your government is taking away your freedom and is on the verge of becoming a tyranny.

  Best, Joe



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  =======================================================
   List services made available by First Step Internet,
   serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
                 http://www.fsr.net
            mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
  ======================================================= 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20121223/79d3a16f/attachment.html>


More information about the Vision2020 mailing list