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<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>"<FONT face="Times New Roman">1/ Mass shootings seem to
be on the rise, maybe even since Aurora. Maybe that is a false perception on my
part but the comparative number of mass shootings here as opposed to those in
other countries is noticeable."</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>It is my understanding that gun violence in the US is
trending downward over the last twenty years. When it comes to other countries a
number for factors come into play. The biggest could be media
scrutiny. Occurrences in our country receive big coverage, other countries much
less. With that being said we have to look no further that our neighbor to the
south. The have very stringent restrictions on private firearm ownership AND a
major problem with firearm violence. The same is true in may south American
countries and African countries. Plenty of violence, less statistical
compilation, and less coverage in the media. Also see:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri><A
title="http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jul/23/facebook-posts/the-us-is-no-in-gun-violence-is-it/
CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jul/23/facebook-posts/the-us-is-no-in-gun-violence-is-it/">http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jul/23/facebook-posts/the-us-is-no-in-gun-violence-is-it/</A></DIV>
<DIV><BR>2/ "...we'd have to do some economic studies to see whether the
buy-back would be cost effective. Many communities have buy-back programs, so my
guess is that they are cost effective but I don't know."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Most of the buy back programs appear to me to be effective enough in there
own way however, most offer a relative pittance for the weapons turned in. (gift
cards usually ranging in the $25.00 to 50.00 range) In return the programs
gather in a generally motley assortment of old, obsolete, broken, and cheap
weapons from folks who are obviously disinclined to have them much less use them
in the commission of a crime. Refer back to the video that someone posted in the
last couple days of a buy back program. You sure aren't seeing state of the art
weaponry being turned in. I think that its fairly safe to say that the person
who shelled out $1200.00 for a high end AR15 and topped it with a $2000.00 scope
won't be giving it up for a meal for two coupon at the local muy bueno taco
palace.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>g<BR><BR><BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Tahoma">
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com
CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">Joe Campbell</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 23, 2012 5:52 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A
title="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com
CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">Gary Crabtree</A> ; <A
title="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com
CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Moscow Vision 2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] A 2nd amendment argument against the NRA
plan</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Thanks, Gary. This is a nice article. Two comments, since I
haven't finished the article and this is out of my area of expertise.<BR><BR>1/
Mass shootings seem to be on the rise, maybe even since Aurora. Maybe that is a
false perception on my part but the comparative number of mass shootings here as
opposed to those in other countries is noticeable.<BR><BR>2/ I don't see the
collection of semiautomatics as an issue. As folks note, MOST who own
semiautomatics are law abiding; more likely than not they know how to handle
guns, have gun safes, etc. It would be unwise to demand that people turn in guns
and some kind of buy-back program would need to be implemented. The best you can
do perhaps is a/ encourage folks to turn-in their automatic weapons, and b/
confiscate weapons discovered during criminal investigations. And we'd have to
do some economic studies to see whether the buy-back would be cost effective.
Many communities have buy-back programs, so my guess is that they are cost
effective but I don't know.<BR><BR>There was a NYT article about reducing crime
in NYC. The key insight -- according to the article -- was that most crimes are
crimes of opportunity. If you eliminate the "low-hanging fruit" most crimes are
eliminated. We should find a policy with a limited impact on law-abiding
citizens who are careful with their firearms yet make crimes of opportunity more
difficult. <BR><BR>3/ Obviously, as you've noted before, education is going to
play a big role here, too. We need to let folks know that guns should be
protected, educate people about the importance of gun safes, etc.<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 1:47 PM, Gary Crabtree <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"
target=_blank>jampot@roadrunner.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote><U></U>
<DIV style="PADDING-LEFT: 10px; PADDING-RIGHT: 10px; PADDING-TOP: 15px"
name="Compose message area">
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>An interesting and informative article on the topic de
jour from a different perspective:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><A
title="http://kontradictions.wordpress.com/2012/08/09/why-not-renew-the-assault-weapons-ban-well-ill-tell-you/
CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="http://kontradictions.wordpress.com/2012/08/09/why-not-renew-the-assault-weapons-ban-well-ill-tell-you/"
target=_blank>http://kontradictions.wordpress.com/2012/08/09/why-not-renew-the-assault-weapons-ban-well-ill-tell-you/</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>Many thanks to the off-list participant who sent
this to me. It sums up the problem (or lack there of) far better then I ever
could.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Calibri>g</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Tahoma"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Tahoma; BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=philosopher.joe@gmail.com
href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target=_blank>Joe Campbell</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 23, 2012 12:56 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target=_blank>Moscow Vision 2020</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> [Vision2020] A 2nd amendment argument against the NRA
plan</DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=h5>
<DIV><BR></DIV>We've noted some specific criticisms of the NRA plan, raised by
Saundra, Sunil, and others. Here is a general argument against the NRA plan
which rests on some but not all of the specific criticisms. By the "NRA plan,"
I mean the plan to deal with our gun violence problem by putting armed forces
in our schools (and presumably other public venues).<BR><BR>Since it is the
NRA plan, if it is a good plan, it should preserve and be consistent with our
2nd amendment rights. Those rights are based on the need for protection of
either of two forms: (a) protection against tyrannical governments as well as
(b) the protection of your life, your interests, and the lives and interests
of your family and friends. Thus, the NRA plan is justified by appeal to the
2nd amendment to the extent that it is based on and secures these type-a and
type-b protections. Will the NRA better protect us from the threat of
tyrannical governments or the threats of mass murderers, spree shooters, and
other lunatics?<BR><BR>It is far from clear that the NRA plan will protect us
from mass murderers and spree shooters and there is good reason to think that
it will cause more harm. The fact is that these folks are SUICIDAL as well as
homicidal. Until it can be shown that the NRA plan will protect us from harm
rather than lead us to more harm it should not be taken seriously.<BR><BR>What
about the need for semi-automatic weapons in order to form militias against a
tyrannical government? Given this, we need a plan that won't put restrictions
on semi-automatic weapons. Yet I don't see how putting armed government forces
in every school in the country is going to increase the possibility of forming
a militia to overtake a tyrannical government. It strikes me that forming a
police state within the school system is exactly the wrong thing to do if your
concern is that your government is taking away your freedom and is on the
verge of becoming a tyranny.<BR><BR>Best, Joe<BR></DIV></DIV>
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